|
Post by Leda EmBorr on Feb 3, 2005 0:32:56 GMT -5
If I were to review the films - I may find problems with them. But my purpose in life is not to review films. My uncle gets paid for that. If I get entertainment value from the film, it's good! If there are issues in it, as long as they don't detract from the entertainment value of the film, I don't care. If it is detracting from your entertainment value, look at why. Does it match your vision of Star Wars? Does it match your view of how actors should act? Well, if you can, look at the film from the creator's POV and it may change. Exactly... why do we go to the movies anyway? To be entertained....to be removed from reality for a short time. If a film is entertaining, or has spoken to you in some way, then like a good book, it has served its purpose. And any movie that causes you to want to dress up like its characters has to have made an impression on you, right? At Chiller-Con there was a guy dressed as a pre-quel Jedi drilling me on why I liked TPM and AOTC... he claimed they were terrible compared to the OT and went on and on pointing out every little thing he didn't like. Finally, I asked "Well then why are you wearing that costume if you hate the movies so much?" He said the Jedi were cool. Go figure. Like Lazlo said, you have to see the movie from its creator's POV... only then will you understand! LOL!!!
|
|
|
Post by Kyrel-Dak on Feb 3, 2005 18:47:18 GMT -5
Interesting enough............much of what Mooglar has said can also apply to the Classic trilogy........During ESB when Luke and Vader were going at it they kept switching back and forth to the attempted rescue of Han. Happens all the time during the fight sequences. If we really look under the microscope we can find all kinds of flaws with the Classic trilogy as well as the prequels..........doesn't make me like them any less........
|
|
|
Post by Primrodo on Feb 3, 2005 19:50:27 GMT -5
Exactly. Whats the hubbub then? Can't recapture your youth and you see them differnt. Nostalgia does that to you. You want proof of that? Look at the kids, look at how they love it
|
|
|
Post by lazlototh on Feb 4, 2005 0:17:58 GMT -5
I have found on occasion that it is not generally possible to change a person's opinion, not without extensive evidence or conviction. So in most cases I don't try.
I have a friend Dan in San Diego who absolutely hates Jar Jar (and a couple of other things in the film). He didn't change his opinion even with extensive talking! And he and I talked for weeks on the subject of the SW universe (darn I miss him). He probably knows more thanI do about the stuff. So I try to stay within boundaries he's comfortable with and we still have a good time... By the way he does like the prequels, but probably not as much as the OT.
I just look at him and say that Palpatine is Anakin's father and we have a good laugh...
|
|
|
Post by Kyrel-Dak on Feb 4, 2005 11:24:44 GMT -5
That is a good one.......Palpatine eh?.......had a vacation on Tatooine?.............perhaps a trade with a Toydarian named Watoo..........or maybe Watoo lost a bet......hhhmmm interesting possibilities.........
|
|
|
Post by mooglar (Malim Vincible) on Feb 4, 2005 12:36:57 GMT -5
Ani-Chay Pinn wrote:
This is an interesting comment, Ani-Chay. But I don't think there is an objective standard to determine what criticisms are and are not due to "deficiencies" in a particular film. It's still a matter of opinion, no? I mean, I think there are "deficiencies" in TPM, which, to me, are the reason I didn't like those parts, not the other way around.
So, by what standard can you say that the "deficiencies" I saw in TPM are just a matter of taste and not real? By the same token, I could simply assert that you overlooked the "deficiencies" which exist because you liked them.
Let us simply agree that I see "deficiencies" in TPM which caused me not to like it much, and you saw no "deficiencies" and therefore liked it. Cool?
Primrodo wrote:
You don't need to be sorry! Some people liked the pod race. A lot of people didn't, including me. I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone else) who liked TPM and/or the podrace that it ****ed. I was just trying to give Kyrel some insight into some reasons I, and many others I know, disliked TPM to help him "defend [TPM] against the bad press and negative comments" he's hearing. I thought it might help him to be ready to counter similar criticisms when he encounters them.
There are a million problems with ANH. No doubt. But it was vastly more popular than TPM. I therefore used some comparisons with ANH to attempt to illuminate why that might be.
That is certainly true for some critics of TPM. But not all. Many people who went to see it in 1999 had not read any of the EU stuff nor had they really thought about Star Wars movies since they saw them in the early 80s.
And some of us, me included, simply wanted the same rush we got from seeing the OT films. I didn't get that rush. That's all. Later, I looked at the film and tried to figure out why.
Absolutely. I didn't intend to imply that there were no politics in ANH. There certainly are. My point was that the politics in ANH are archetypical and straightforward enough, and therefore easily understood, whereas in TPM they are murky and left largely unexplained.
Kyrel wrote:
I've heard this a number of times from other people. The problem, I think, is that a film is a stand-alone piece of art. I shouldn't require the moviegoer to have read books in order to understand it. The film should let the moviegoer know everything he or she needs to know to understand the narrative.
Because, simply put, if you go to see a movie and don't understand it, few people are going to go out and read about the movie to try to get it. They're just going to tell their friends, "Yeah, it kinda ****ed. I didn't know what was going on." And never think of it again.
And that can be one of the reasons that someone criticizes a film like TPM, and so I thought knowing the reason might be of use to you.
My point wasn't that switching between various threads and battles is bad in and of itself. My point, rather, is that many of us felt that Jar-Jar, Anakin, and Amidala were rather flat, lifeless characteres, and we therefore felt little emotional connection with them.
Therefore, many of us did not care much about the Gungan battle, the Queen running around the palace, or Anakin fighting the Trade Federation. So, whenever the film switched from the cool lightsaber battle to stuff with the characters we didn't like, the movie felt like it was dragging.
So, my point is not that switching between the various battles was bad or wrong, but that the failure came earlier, when the film failed to get many of us to care about Jar-Jar, Anakin, and Padme.
|
|
|
Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Feb 4, 2005 19:57:02 GMT -5
Well, Mooglar, given that statement, all of that verbiage can be boiled down to, "I liked it, you didn't." Ani-Chay Pinn wrote: This is an interesting comment, Ani-Chay. But I don't think there is an objective standard to determine what criticisms are and are not due to "deficiencies" in a particular film. It's still a matter of opinion, no? I mean, I think there are "deficiencies" in TPM, which, to me, are the reason I didn't like those parts, not the other way around. etc., etc., etc.....
|
|
|
Post by Jedimom/Cor-Al Gelkar on Feb 4, 2005 20:02:14 GMT -5
There are deficiencies in all films -- even Academy Award winners
Its all from "a certain point of view"
|
|
|
Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Feb 4, 2005 23:19:39 GMT -5
Yes, yes! The quoteable Obi-wan.
|
|
|
Post by mooglar (Malim Vincible) on Feb 5, 2005 1:43:51 GMT -5
Ani-Chay said:
Yes. But that doesn't mean there isn't any value in discussing why one person likes something and another doesn't. I think that understanding why some of us disliked much of TPM might be useful to Kyrel when discussing TPM with critics. It's easier to discuss/debate a topic with someone if you understand his or her position.
Kyrel asked for help in defending TPM against critics, and though I am on the opposite side of the issue from him, I am trying to help him in that goal in the only way I can: By providing the perspective of those he may be debating.
Some of the responses I was answering seemed to be missing the point of my objections, so my most recent post was simply meant to clarify my position. I know that you disagree with me, Ani-Chay, and that's cool. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm just trying to make my actual position clear, because if my objections aren't understood, little insight can be gained from them.
|
|
|
Post by Kyrel-Dak on Feb 5, 2005 2:17:46 GMT -5
The rush that everyone felt when ANH hit the screen stemmed from the special effects taking a quantum leap forward and giving more eye candy than the audience was used to or built up to. I have always imagined how many audience members would have fainted and tossed their bellies if Aliens had been transported back to the Saturday afternoon movies in the early fifties. The audiences just would not have been able to handle what they were seeing on the screen.
We, as an audience were not prepared for what we saw. When ESB hit the screens we were ready and other films had also picked up on the effects innovations that Lucas pushed forward. Many years later when TPM hit the screen the sound and effects were better than ever but we were used to them by then. People had too many high expectations and pre conceived notions about what they wanted and expected to see. Therefore dissapointment set in and the only way to explain it was to pick it apart and fail to see the pure enjoyment of another Star Wars on the big screen and more of what fans grew to love.
All the films were meant to be "B" type serial movies. This film has endeared in the hearts of many Star Wars fans as apparent by the many posts. More serious Star Wars fans also have no objections to reading more in order to understand certain parts or reasoning. This largely explains the enormous revenues the EU and all the fan publications draw.
I believe many had too high expectations and felt dissapointment since they already had thoughts of what the film should be not what it was. It is after all Mr. Lucas story he has chosen to share with us and like it or not he made it the way he wanted us to see it. As for our poor Jar Jar.........I am going out on a limb here with a slight comparison......please don't pelt me with marshmellows here but my wife hates Chewbacca and all his howling. He is probably one of the most beloved characters in all of Star Wars but not everyone feels the same way........I almost cringe now when we watch the Classic Trilogy every time Chewy howls or grunts because I look over and see her face contorting. Pretty funny how when we don't like a character what affect it can have on our enjoyment of the film. I am of course very happy that I enjoy watching all of the films and do so frequently........while twirling lightsabers too from the comfort of my easy chair........
|
|
|
Post by Primrodo on Feb 5, 2005 2:43:29 GMT -5
Heh I got your Devil's Adovate role mooglar, I was just giing a similie, mostly because I hate when people nitpick movies in such a way that it causes much strife. I mean you hear no one arguing about characters in Romeo and Juliet
|
|
|
Post by Leda EmBorr on Feb 5, 2005 2:48:06 GMT -5
In the words of GL... "I make movies for me."
|
|
Schph Gochi
Message Board Member
"traveling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops boy"
Posts: 9,278
|
Post by Schph Gochi on Jul 23, 2005 3:55:14 GMT -5
How did I miss this thread? TPM....let's see.. The first time I saw it...I didn't like it...but I decided to give it another chance...I had a cr*ppy day at work and was tired... The second time I saw TPM...I loved it....I could ignore Jar Jar at will..... IMHO.... TPM has the best piece of Star Wars music ever...(Duel of the Fates).. TPM has (still) the best lightsaber battle ever....Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul....I still like it even better than all the lightsaber duels in AOTC or ROTS.... TPM introduced Jedi (as noted) in their full glory... TPM introduced me to costuming...because after I saw the costumes of QGJ and OWK....I had to have one...and...well...the rest is history... And...agreed...the two trilogies should really not be compared to each other...The OT certainly had more than its' share of wooden acting and script challenges....I think many people who were say 8-14 years old when the OT came out remember it with the "remembrances" of youth...I on the other hand was 26 when ANH came out....it became my favorite movie ....but I viewed it with the eyes of someone older...and remember it with its weaknesses.... The OT was far from perfect... and Oscar winners... don't even get me started... some real "Best Picture" stinkers .... "Chariots of Fire" "Ghandi" "The English Patient"... need I say more...
|
|
|
Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Jul 23, 2005 23:12:34 GMT -5
It was the third time that I saw TPM that I really liked it. But the opening scenes with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan...I loved that the very first time. Can beat that hot Jedi action. ;D But since I was already heavily into costuming so many other things, I only dabbled in Jedi hall costumes until last year when I decided to upgrade.
"Barry Lyndon" I think got best picture the year ANH was nominated because the Academy simply could not bring itself to vote for THAT kind of movie. But in terms of sheer creative newness of so many things, ANH clearly deserved the award just for being the groundbreaking film that it was.
|
|