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Post by Kyrel-Dak on Jan 31, 2005 1:32:52 GMT -5
I would be interested in hearing from other members about how they would defend against the bad press and negative comments always made about Episode I. Of course, it may come through that I am a big fan of TPM and consider it my favorite for a variety of reasons. So here goes:
After seeing ROTJ I had to go home quietly and begin the long wait for anything else Star Wars to come along. I, like many felt a certain sadness that it was uncertain whether or not we would ever see another Star Wars movie. When the long wait was finally over the anticipation was immense for Episode I. The incredible excitement when I sat in the theater again and saw the scroll was unbelievable. There was also a very humorous moment when someone in the audience broke the quiet before the movie began and said in a loud voice "A longer time ago and further away" Everyone broke into laughter and we were having a blast.
When Qui-Gon Jinn took the screen.........at long last we saw what a Jedi could do in the height of his power. Together with Obi-Wan it broke into and amazing array of lightsaber furry. When Qui-Gon penetrated the blast doors with his saber and the doors began to whirl and melt I thought........wow! Once again, I felt that burning need to have one.
The Jedi mission took many turns and twists until......on the hot sands of Tatooine at last the Jedi and Sith clashed for the first time in a 1,000 years........wow!
And of course........in a word........Maul No Sith has been as bad A_ _ ! The double saber.........Wow! or should I say, double wow!
It was great to see Tatooine again........but seeing the Jedi in the forests of Naboo almost brought something serene and mystical to the feelings about the Jedi. A oneness with nature maybe......not to wax poetic....
Many critisized the Pod race but I thought it was not only an awesome display of movie making technology, not to mention the sound effects of the engines but it was also very cool to get a glimse into the Star Wars world on a more personal level. They were watching their version of a holiday spectacle.......a race.....and having a good time (although Pod racers were biting the dust all over the place)
Although it remains to be seen (and might be argued with the Geonosis arena) but I believe there has not been a better lightsaber battle than with our two heros and Darth Maul. The moves were so intense and complicated that even on slow motion (once the DVD came out) it was difficult to track. I could watch that duel all the time and never tire of it.
Admittedly, the arial battle at the end was sort of "been there done that" it was still cool to see Anakin accidentally end up inside and through dumb luck.......aaaaahhhhh the force.......blow up the station.
I enjoyed the battle between the Gungans and the Battle droids.........since Lucas loves to pit primitives against technology quite a bit this one was great (and I think better than the Ewoks dropping stones right through the Stormtrooper armour) geesh just gimme a hard hat would have been better. And of note.......the Gungans lost the battle but due to Anakins little mishap the station blew up and saved them. When the battle droids deploy....how cool.....and the Braveheart style line battle once inside the shields........awesome.
First time we saw the Jedi Council too, along with the Temple.......did a bad job with the Yoda puppet but then there is Mace........sort of made up for it eh? Saw Correscant for the first time too. We also finally saw what the Jedi wore during their heyday......pretty cool, loved the field equipment.....Comlink - holoprojector - and Aqua A-99 Breather........all too cool......
So........share what you think..........
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Post by Jedimom/Cor-Al Gelkar on Jan 31, 2005 7:48:59 GMT -5
Hi, my name is Cor-Al and I loved Epsiode One... ;D
I have had to defend myself on this several times... even to my best friend and fellow Star Wars geek.
Episode One has the dubious distinction to have to follow-up the Original Trilogiy. I believe so many people were expecting a continuation -- more or less -- of the original trilogy in the sense of story, etc. They failed to realize that these prequel movies opened a whle new world of story. Every story must have a beginning, and unfortunately at the beginning of any tale, a lot has to be established. New characters had to be established, and when a new universe is created (with new planets and new settings) a lot needs to be done. There were weak moments, but so much good came out of Ep. 1. Seeing the Jedi in their heydey is awesome and seeing the inside of the Jedi Temple -- wow! Great characters such as Qui-Gon, Mace, Darth Maul -- and yes, even Jar-Jar. Peering into the already established characters such as Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda and delving more into their backgrounds. And don't forget the special effects! Some people complained about them, but to me they were seamless and gave a new perspective.
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Laryn
Message Board Member
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Post by Laryn on Jan 31, 2005 11:15:43 GMT -5
Personally I enjoyed Episode 1, even more so than episode 2 in some significant ways. The lightsaber work was much more exciting in episode 1 than ep2. It's of course my opinion but after the maul battle in ep1, the dooku battle with obi-wan & anakin looked just HORRIBLE where the maul battle was awe-inspiring. The yoda saber duel was fun to watch but too short (though the force battle before it was lame as well as dooku's lines). Oddly enough, even though in ep1 you're supposed to see less emotion from the jedi, the feeling you get from seeing the jedi runs rings around the horrible lack of chemistry between hayden and natalie. Hopefully nobody will kill me (I'm sure we have a lot of hayden fans) but when he delivered his lines, especially with natalie, I just had to cringe. Yeah I know I'm comparing ep1 to ep2 and leaving out the original trilogy, and that's only because there's no comparing it to the original. It's like comparing apples to oranges both in terms of story and method. Course ep1 has it's weak points, like jarjar, and some of the visuals like yoda. I think the whole foundation of what was to begin anakin's fall (missing his mother, and ultimately losing her) was forced. With very very little more effort I believe she could have been freed and it would have been a non-issue. But whatever, suspension of disbelief or something. After having been without a star wars movie in so long, episode 1 satisfied my craving in more ways than it disappointed.
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Post by Kyrel-Dak on Jan 31, 2005 13:42:45 GMT -5
Jar jar was no doubt anoying.........it took some time before I was able to understand his language. I thought it was interesting that he was duped into giving Palpatine his power in Ep II. I am thinking that he might even have a brave death trying to defend Amidala in Ep III, sort of a sacrifice which could ultimately redeem his character. Interesting hypothesis.
I too have had to defend my position many times, also Ep I was fast paced with lots of action where as Ep II gets bogged down with the "love" story. I think Lucas should have brought in a different director for the love portion.......one who makes love stories and is more capable in this area.
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Post by Leda EmBorr on Jan 31, 2005 14:06:57 GMT -5
Yeah you said it Laryn, Comparing The OT to the prequels is like comparing apples to oranges. I think much of the disappointment came when people expected to see a continuation (albeit backward) of the original trilogy. I must admit, I was disappointed when I saw episode one at first, but not for those reasons. I didn't get the fact that the Jedi were supposed to appear emotionless and unaffected, epecially the scene in the Gungan sub, where Qui-Gon just sits placid while they're being munched by a big fish. Still, the excitement I felt sitting in the theatre after all those years, and the 20th cent fox fanfare played to the sparkling green logo of Lucasfilm was... intoxicating! lol! And nothing (so far) tops the lightsaber battle with Maul! Hopefully EPIII will! And yeah, I agree Lucas may have benefitted by bringing in an alternate director for the love/romance portion of EPII. This is an important part of the story and chemistry was definitely lacking, moreso with Natalie than with Hayden in my opinion, but both could have shown more emotion. Despite that, I think AotC is my fave so far... I love the interaction between Obi-Wan and Anakin, and the Jedi Starfighter is by far my favorite ship! I'll take a blue one, please!
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Mon-Jas Charan
Message Board Member
"Poena Vigoratus. Pullus cavo vix. Palma , est eternus"
Posts: 2,630
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Post by Mon-Jas Charan on Jan 31, 2005 14:20:43 GMT -5
Episode I is my favorite of the 5 out so far … I think a lot of the disappointment came from 20 years of people having created what they though things should be … Most forget that these are “B” movie serials. That is what GL was trying to recreate and nothing more. He had the complete story line in mind and the outline has not varied much from his inception. It is his universe not ours.
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Post by Leda EmBorr on Jan 31, 2005 14:24:40 GMT -5
Right, movies in sequence, not meant to stand alone, like ANH could have.
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Post by lazlototh on Jan 31, 2005 14:45:19 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]
Episode I is my favorite of the 5 out so far … I think a lot of the disappointment can from 20 years of people having created what they though things should be … Most forget that these are “B” movie serials. That is what GL was trying to recreate and nothing more. It is his universe not ours.
[/shadow] My comment begins with an agreement to Mon-Jas here. The intent of the creator has to be figured in to fully understand how the movie should be watched. I have the dubious issue of being an adult watching this film versus seeing ANH at the age of nine. I get the best effect when I see the films as a child opposed to as an adult. Then Jar Jar falls into place and the cool space battles and wotnot. Secondly, the newer films are being compared to the older films. The first trilogy had nothing to compare it to... Now, Star Wars has a lot to compare it to, other sci-fi or fantasy films, or even TV shows. This is a touchy statement, but there are a lot of quality films out there, in one way or another. Heck LOTR:Return of the King won Best Picture! Now Star Wars - intent or not - has to compete with these other films. There's so much eye candy out there now, a person has to be discerning just to see good movies. If I were to review the films - I may find problems with them. But my purpose in life is not to review films. My uncle gets paid for that. If I get entertainment value from the film, it's good! If there are issues in it, as long as they don't detract from the entertainment value of the film, I don't care. If it is detracting from your entertainment value, look at why. Does it match your vision of Star Wars? Does it match your view of how actors should act? Well, if you can, look at the film from the creator's POV and it may change. The only thing I could ever complain about Episode I is the removal of Anakin's little scrap with the other boy and the destruction of Maul's remote to further justify Qui-gon's need to run back to the Naboo ship... The only complaint about Episode II is that the film felt slow in places. Different editing may fix that, but the scenes themselves weren't superfluous nor unneccesary. That's it. Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe I don't know anything about movie making (I don't!). The critics tend to be - well - critical. It's their job. For people who don't like the films, unfortunately that's their problem. I can't force them to like them and I don't want to force my opinion upon them. If their perceptions tell them they don't like them, it's their right and prerogative. But as a friend of mine once said, no one has a right to be not offended. There's too many people around. POVs and opinions abound. All we can do is try to live in harmony. The wonder of living here in the USA. We can say anything we want.
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Jan 31, 2005 19:22:30 GMT -5
I don't really feel any need to defend episode I. It's impossible to capture the universal appeal of the first movie because you can't get the shock value that ANH had going for it by having so many new elements in it:
- special effects better than anything ever seen before - used, lived-in sci-fi/fantasy universe - aliens with subtitles - gorgeous symphonic sound track - terrific but simple good guys/bad guys story and characters
It was ALL new. ANH opened in May 1977; it was still playing in theaters the following CHRISTMAS. It was the first movie to have huge repeat business. I've never, ever seen any film do that. No way can any Star Wars movie come even close to doing that. I'm old enough to remember people griping about how ESB wasn't as good as ANH when it came out. Now critics talk about ESB being the best one.
If someone tells me that they didn't like the first one, all I tell them back is that hot Jedi action is all I need. Wow. ;D I think I love the lightsaber battles in TPM and AOTC about equally; sure Maul was a quality fight, but there's so much of it in the second film. Yoda against Dukoo, Obi-wan against Jango. Mace against everybody; it's just so cool. Really, you get the most Jedi per square centimeter in AOTC than all the others combined.
But when I look at the movies together I really appreciate how Lucas kept the tone of the prequels consistent with the original trilogy. Doesn't anyone remember those interview stories of Harrison Ford threatening to tie up Lucas and force him to repeat his cheesy dialogue for ANH? Lucas has stuck with the strengths and weaknesses of the originals; he's looking at the set of six movies as a whole. That's an artistic choice I respect. I think they'll stand up well together.
And I was soooooo happy when you saw in AOTC that the Death Star was a long term obsession of the Emperor. That made ROTJ a much stronger movie. The weakest part of ROTJ for me when it came out was that they blew up the Death Star.....ho hum.....again. But putting it into the long term story really changes the way that looks.
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Post by mooglar (Malim Vincible) on Feb 2, 2005 16:10:35 GMT -5
Except for the lightsaber battles and a little cool Jedi stuff, I disliked Episode I. As a professionally published SF writer and a former Hollywood script reader, I can tell you that my objections, as well as many of the critics of the film, don't have much to do with the things discussed thus far in this thread.
I don't know how to defend Episode I, but perhaps I can explain some of my problems so you can get an understanding of where the critics are coming from.My problems mostly involve story issues as opposed to special effects or other issues.
The problems start right with the opening crawl. In ANH, there is talk of rebellion, galactic civil war, space stations capable of destroying an entire planet, and secret plans. In TPM, we are told that there is a blockade because of a trade dispute about the taxation of shipping lanes or something. We are never really told what the hell that means, or why we should care. Yawn! In short, the inciting incident of the film, the conflict that leads to all the other conflicts, is never explained, and thus we cannot but not be excited about it. We must know what is at stake in order for there to be real drama, and for most of the film we aren't clear about that. Also, there's really nothing to make us care about what happens to Naboo or her people. The privations the population may have endured at the hands of the Trade Federation blockade are never shown, nor is the oppression and murder being perpetrated by the Trade Federation after they invade. It's all too abstract. As such, when Amidala is negotiating with the Gungans, we don't care that much about what happens. We don't know the stakes, we haven't seen glimpses of what domination by the Trade Federation will mean, and we haven't developed any kind of emotional attachment to Naboo. This is further exacerbated when the cool lightsaber fight is interrupted over and over with scenes of the Gungan battle and the space battle, battles which involved characters we don't care about fighting over stakes we neither understand nor care about.
A significant problem with TPM is the lack of characters who can be easily identified with. Now, I know a lot of people are going to say, "I had no trouble identifying with X," and that's cool. I'm not saying it was impossible to identify with the characters, but much more difficult than, say, in ANH. In ANH, there are archetypical characters that we can relate to: the young dreamer stuck in the 'burbs, the pirate, the old wizard, the princess in need of rescuing, the evil wizard. We don't need to understand the specifics of their lives because they are set in types we understand.
But, in TPM, we lose that. There is no "regular guy" character like Luke. Our main protagonists are Jedi Knights, who live by a strange code and never have a family or anything outside the Order, which few audience members can identify with. Amidala is a 14-year-old who, because of her position, is distant and off-putting. Anakin is a slave who participates in dangerous races at only 9 years of age. The main bad guys, instead of the deliciously villanious Tarkin and Vader, are the shadowy and distant Sidious and the closed-mouthed Maul, who ultimately is more of a monster than a character. None of them are regular people being swept up in events, beginning the hero's journey, and so none of them are as engaging as the characters in ANH. They all seemed pretty much defined by their jobs and had little else to offer.
The character portrayals themselves bothered me as well, as they seemed forced and inconsistent. For instance, it seemed very odd to me that Qui-Gon would have no compunction about using the Force to cheat Watto (by getting Watto to take Republic credits that are worthless to Watto, and then by controlling the outcome of the die roll for whether Anakin or his mother get released) but then, instead of just stealing the drive or threatening Watto to get it, goes through this big scheme with the pod race to win the drive. All the while people are dying on Naboo. By what standard is it okay to cheat Watto out of the drive in order to save lives on Naboo but not to threaten or steal?
To me, it seemed very obvious that Qui-Gon acted as he did just to make the plot work and give Lucas his pod race. As such, the pod race, which is muuuuuuch too long, loses all its narrative power, because it is so obviously wedged in to the film, rather than developing organically.
Anakin is another problem. He is too perfect. Since TPM is the beginning of the story of Anakin's fall to the dark side, we need to see some hint of that coming darkness in the boy. And we don't. So, it's difficult to relate this perfect, helpful, cheerful little kid to the man he will later become. There needed to be some foreshadowing to show the vulnerabilities in his character that someday the Emperor will exploit.
With Obi-Wan, we get told a number of times that he's kind of reckless and a hot dog, but he is portrayed as basically the perfect student. Also, similar to Anakin, there's nothing about Obi-Wan or about his relationship with Anakin in TPM that foreshadows what is going to happen. Therefore, it is hard to remember what is going to happen and the setup fails to really carry us along.
Then, there's the Duel of the Fates. First off, if Maul is on Naboo to help the Trade Federation defeat the Naboo, he should be doing more than just keeping the Jedi busy. That is kind of like using your planes just to fight with the enemy's planes, instead of using your planes to attack the enemy's troops and only dogfighting to defend themselves. It's so contrived that the doors open and Amidala, whose planet's freedom rests on this battle, would be willing to "take the long way" rather than just shooting Maul (who doesn't even have his saber ignited). Maul should have been attacking the Naboo, harrying them, doing things to stop them from succeeding, rather than just dueling with the Jedi. Defeating the Jedi, from what we know, is not his mission. It would have been so much more interesting if the Jedi were trying to figure out what the Sith (who are supposed to be sneaky and shadowy, right?) are doing, where they are attacking, and figure it out before Maul defeats the Naboo. But this just walking out and basically challenging the Jedi to a duel is boring. In the OT, all the lightsaber battles had more going on than just the participants trying to kill each other, which made them interesting on not only the action level, but also the story level. This duel lacks that.
There are some of my main objections to TPM. I think they are rather different than the things previously discussed. Do with them as you will.
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Feb 2, 2005 19:55:15 GMT -5
Hmmm, I don't agree with just about all of these points, which look like a choice of what one does and doesn't like and not due to deficiencies in the movie. I thought the story was fine. It dragged for me during the pod race -- exactly where it shouldn't have -- but otherwise moved on well and was remarkably consistent with the original trilogy.
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Post by Primrodo on Feb 2, 2005 20:18:18 GMT -5
Sorry but watching TPM at the pod race I was pretty awestruck and pulled right in.
I think I should start a list on why ANH didn't work.
Lets see you never see any war going on, just stormtrops walking around. When they do shoot a rebel we don't know who they are are and I don't really care about them. Who cares if the Death Star is really all powerful, they should have blew up tatooine that way there would have been an emotional response, instead they blow up Alderaan who has no connection with the plot its like just thrown in its Leias home planet to make it seem like its some emotional impacting scene.
And then what about Darth there, his acting is simply to further the plot and ony suffices to take down Kenobi, who has also shown no emotional attachment other than he wants Luke to follow him. Like wheres the scenes showing Luke has a kurnel of talent in the Force. instead he just lost his Aunt and Uncle and he never shed a tear.
And I could go on with the same sort of comments. People harp on the PT simply because it never fits their vision of what THEY thought or what the EU construed to be what the Jedi were like.
Really I thought TPM was great, I liked it more that AOTC in places and thougt teh plot was great.
And for those that think theres no political nonsense in ANH its smeared all but there. A rebellion is all about going against polical constructs, and the even have their political banter while Leia is there.
I suppose though that people will be people.
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Post by Xana on Feb 2, 2005 22:50:46 GMT -5
Hahahah!! This is funny, I never heard anyone trash ANH before. It's refreshing. I always thought some of that was odd, like why Luke never looked too upset to loose the only parents he ever knew. And the Alderaan scene WAS supposed to be just emotionally impacting.
However, there are things that Lucas left open so he could go back and fill in the blanks later on if he so chose. Like the Clone Wars, and why Obi-Wan wants Luke to follow him and so forth.
I loved TPM and just don't understand all the hullabaloo from people. It's Star Wars and it fun! I agree, that people went in with what THEY thought the movie should be like and were disappointed. I went to see it expecting a Star Wars movie and I came out very happy! I feel no reason to defend my position. "I liked it" is good enough for me. ;D
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Post by Kyrel-Dak on Feb 2, 2005 23:59:01 GMT -5
Well Mooglar, I think that Lucas has always had a knack if you will for making films that seem superficial on the surface and good for kids but really are very deep and take some incredible insight into the why's and so forth.
I will only touch on a few and leave to others to add to. In ANH, what we have is a boy who sort of idolizes the mystery of his father and wants any tidbit of information. We learn later that Obi Wan needed Luke to follow since he was the best chance to topple Vader and the Emporer.
In TPM, Maul is only interested in revealing himself to the Jedi and dominating them by beating , then killing them both. If he does that then he can kill or take hostage the Queen. As long as a Jedi still lives on the planet they are a threat to whatever plan the Sith have.
It is fascinating to me how deep the politics run in TPM, but it takes reading in the EU to fill in all the missing pieces. A third rate Senator from a fourth rate little planet launches the events that catapults him into the highest position in the galaxy. In the EU it is explained that the senator from Naboo that Palpatine replaces is killed mysteriously (we all know what that means) and it was a Jedi's father. It is possible and likely that Palpatine wasn't even from Naboo. He befriends the Jedi who's padawan devises a plan to uncover the Sith Lord in the Senate and almost exposes Palpatine. Of course both the Jedi master and his padawan are immediately killed against overwhelming odds in a battle that Palpatine orders. The plot thickens........
Lucas has a very unique way of not giving all the information up front (although many think he should by the sound of it) and allowing things to get deeper with sequels and EU.
The one thing though that keeps bugging me is what is up with the stupid treaty everyone keeps getting the Queen to sign. He even tells Maul once disposing of the Jedi he should have no trouble getting her to go back to Naboo to sign the thing. Well.........what if she had in order to save her people.........that would have totally foiled the Sith. Perhaps, Sidious, knowing that she would never sign a treaty (and counting on it) came up with it just to pressure her into further action, as he states about the Gungans "this will work to our advantage........wipe them out........all of them"
I do love the way the complicated politics makes you think and shows just how devious the Sith are........take note........only one Sith Lord, by starting a war that threatens the Republic he serves brought about not only the subjugation of many worlds but the complete (almost, thank goodness) annihilation of the Jedi Order.......there were over 9,000 Jedi in the galaxy when this mess started and how many by ANH
By the way, for all you out there who like to make up you back stories for your Jedi characters consider this somehow it is assumed only Yoda and Obi-Wan survive the clone wars.......although EU says different.........there were many Jedi who were in hiding by the end of the next movie..........Vader had to help the Emporer hunt down the last remaining Jedi.......and twenty years go by before ANH.........so there is hope for all of us to survive just a bit longer after the next film.....eh?
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on Feb 3, 2005 0:15:18 GMT -5
Yeah, if you go to see something with "Star Wars" on the label, you get exactly what they advertised!
And I remember people picking at ANH! We had to do something while wating for ESB. Why didn't Luke cry after he saw his aunt and uncle crisped? Why didn't Leia cry? "Too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise, " Obi-wan said; then why can't they hit anything? Etc, etc, etc.... Back when I was looking for anything about SW, I read an article about a convention of philosophers that met in LA around 1978 or so and they got ahold of Star Wars and just went nuts with it. The forum's censor droid won't let me type what they said the X-wings attacking the Death Star was a metaphor for.
The funny thing about about TPM.....when it came out I ended up seeing it 3 times with different people. And I liked it better the third time I saw it than I did the first. Same with AOTC. I like a film that does well with repeat viewings. And I liked the axpanded pod race on the DVD better than the film, even though it was longer; it had more humor. And the pod race *was* essential to the plot, because that's how you KNEW that Annakin could really handle himself in a crisis as he did when he saved the day at the end.
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