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Post by kivaanzion on May 1, 2005 21:21:50 GMT -5
Try not to take Jedimom's post too literally:
Swords can be anywhere from 40 to 50 inches in length. Compare that to a (single bladed) lightsaber which is about 11 inches. I don't think you can make an arguement about the left sided placement, and mounting/dismounting a vehicle in the SW universe.
Really I think it has nothing to do with being Jedi or Sith, but rather being left or right handed. As has been said, there are only four Sith we have seen, and only one of them wore his saber on his right.
Kevin
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Post by Kyrel-Dak on May 1, 2005 21:51:52 GMT -5
More food for thought........
Darth Maul wore his in the right........and.........was right handed
Qui-Gon Jinn was also right handed.........wore his on the left
Obi-Wan was right handed........wore his on the left
For Classic trilogy fans......Luke was right handed....wore his on the left
I too, am right handed.........wear mine on the left and do not cross draw but draw with the left hand grabbing the pommel area and place the right hand near the emmitter and activate
It was very astute of therenotdolls to find the photo in the visual dictionary......first photo I have ever seen with saber on the right on a Jedi.......I thought of the possibility of the film flip as Primrodo has stated which could be the case.......I have been searching for other photos of Saesee Tinn and can't find any showing him with saber.......checked my action figure and his cloak is covering the belt area......will continue searching photos
The other possibility though is that it was placed on the right just for the publicity photo for the book.......perhaps the photographer just wanted the saber visible........either way I will continue to research his character and the photo.......
Odd though..........this is the only known photo.........and also, Primrodo is right about the arena Jedi. I have been in two movies so far........one for HBO and one for TNT and in both the prop and waredrobe folks just throw things on you and send you to the set.......they figure no one will scrutinize it too closely........(Star Wars fans however........)
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Post by Leda EmBorr on May 1, 2005 22:25:11 GMT -5
Leda, it's like the 1980's secret code for earrings for men...is it in his left or right...or both? Heheh... I was going to mention that... it's what came to mind first! lol! So to know whether you're Jedi or Sith, all I have to do is ask, "How's it hangin"? ...sweet! I hung my saber on the left without giving it any thought... to me that's where I would wear a scabbard, draw a sword, so it was natural. I suppose if I were left handed, the opposite would be true. And I suppose if I had no arms, I would have to hang it elsewhere.
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Post by Shoshana Win on May 1, 2005 22:39:09 GMT -5
I just learned an interesting tidbit of information...Ray Park (Darth Maul of course ) is actually left-handed, not right-handed. Here's the link: www.imdb.com/name/nm0661917/bioTo me, that explains why he has his saber on the right, even though he draws it with his right hand also. I did noticed when he was fighting with Qbi-Wan and Qui-gon with his double-bladed saber that he held it primarily in his left hand whenever he held the saber with only one hand (except for one shot). So then I checked how he held his saber after Obi-Wan cuts it in half, and to my surprise, he holds it in his right. So I was throughly confused at that point, which is when I went looking for info on Ray Park. I guess he is just so well trained that he can use either his left or right hand to fight. Actually, now that I think about it, they probably had him fight with his right hand, because Ewan is right-handed. It would look wierd to an audience I think to see a fight between a leftie and a rightie. Anyway, the point of my whole rambling post ;D is that Darth Maul is actually a leftie, so that's why I think his saber is on the right .
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Post by Primrodo on May 2, 2005 1:36:18 GMT -5
primrodo, since you seem to know a good bit about this...why is the mandate for samauri left over right and sword on left side? Well theres alot there. Class, rank, society, respect etc. I'd have to go right into some books to get you a more thought out response to that
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Post by kivaanzion on May 2, 2005 4:28:14 GMT -5
I don't know what styles Ray Park has studied, but I have taken a blended version of Escrima/Kali/Arnis. This is a form of single and double-stick fighting. I am right-handed and although I would use my right hand instinctively (when holding a single stick), I can do all the (kata) moves with my left hand as well. Ray Park is a gazillion years ahead of me so I believe you are right that he could easily use either hand. By the way, I wear my saber on the left for no other reason than my costume being a version of Obi-Wan's prequel robes. Kevin
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Solinbeb Newau
Message Board Member
There are many ways to learn the ways of the Force, but only those who have joined it may know best.
Posts: 1,181
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Post by Solinbeb Newau on May 2, 2005 10:01:19 GMT -5
So far, this does seem to go with the fencing theory of cross-drawing a weapon. the weapon resting on the opposite side of the primary hand. More food for thought........ Darth Maul wore his in the right........and.........was right handed Qui-Gon Jinn was also right handed.........wore his on the left Obi-Wan was right handed........wore his on the left For Classic trilogy fans......Luke was right handed....wore his on the left I too, am right handed.........wear mine on the left and do not cross draw but draw with the left hand grabbing the pommel area and place the right hand near the emmitter and activate It was very astute of therenotdolls to find the photo in the visual dictionary......first photo I have ever seen with saber on the right on a Jedi.......I thought of the possibility of the film flip as Primrodo has stated which could be the case.......I have been searching for other photos of Saesee Tinn and can't find any showing him with saber.......checked my action figure and his cloak is covering the belt area......will continue searching photos The other possibility though is that it was placed on the right just for the publicity photo for the book.......perhaps the photographer just wanted the saber visible........either way I will continue to research his character and the photo....... Odd though..........this is the only known photo.........and also, Primrodo is right about the arena Jedi. I have been in two movies so far........one for HBO and one for TNT and in both the prop and waredrobe folks just throw things on you and send you to the set.......they figure no one will scrutinize it too closely........(Star Wars fans however........)
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Post by Theyrenotdolls (Den Dragonson) on May 2, 2005 19:18:08 GMT -5
Kyrel-Dak,
i also had the idea that the photo might simply be arranged so that the saber could be more easily seen. the reason i dont think it's true, is because agen kolar, on the same page is wearing his saber on his left....with teh saber facing away from the reader. it's still possible that the picture was arranged with the saber on teh right to make the saber more visible. *it's also possible that the picture was arranged this way to show that he wears his saber on the right.
[glow=red,2,300] For more evidence on this matter....watch the trailer....the scene when the 4 jedi enter the room (i'm being vague to avoid spoilers....pm me if you need clarification .....play it in slo mo..... saesee tinn walks in and is wearing his saber on the right...and he grabs it with his right hand, then activates it. [/glow]
i didnt continue with all of this to prove that sabers can be a certain way...left or right...right or left handed, etc. i just wanted to say that there seems to be freedom to choose in this aspect as well as many other aspects of the jedi costume. (unless one's aim is to replicate a specific character)
it seems like you did put some thought into the problem before beginning this post, but i suppose it was bothersome that there was such an angry tone to your position. (at least from my point of view.) I would hope that jedi in these rooms would be more tolerant of variation. maybe i'm reading it wrong...if so, then all apologies.
i am glad that this topic did come up, though....i never realized that the "right sided saber-wearers" were so outnumbered.... what's also weird is that i've based my costume off of saesee tinn's basic design (not imitating his costume exactly, though) and i've spent hours looking at pictures of it...and never noticed the saber on the right in that picture.
TND
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Post by Shoshana Win on May 3, 2005 15:24:58 GMT -5
it seems like you did put some thought into the problem before beginning this post, but i suppose it was bothersome that there was such an angry tone to your position. (at least from my point of view.) I would hope that jedi in these rooms would be more tolerant of variation. maybe i'm reading it wrong...if so, then all apologies. TND You're right TND, there was indeed an angry tone to some of the replies to Kyrel's post, at least on my part. I guess I should explain why it upset me so much. Basically, Kyrel just came out and said that all Jedi HAD to wear their sabers on the left. No arguments, that was the way it had to be! I understand that he based this on evidence from the movies and photos, but he stated that there weren't any photos that demonstrated that Jedi ever wear their sabers on the left, therefore, we should all wear them on the left. Here's the part that really bothered me though..he said that if we wore our sabers on the right, WE WOULD BE GOING AGAINST JEDI TRADITION (Which is what exactly anyway? How do any of us know what Jedi tradition is, since the Jedi do not exist?) That where your wore your saber was NOT an option, so if you wore it on the right you were WRONG!! I'm sorry, but saying that was analogous to someone telling me I'm wrong because I don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Don't get me wrong, the magnitude of these two statements are COMPLETELY different, but at a basic level they are the same. At least to me, though I am sure that a lot of people will think that I am overreacting. And finally, it turns out he was wrong, as we have found evidence, both printed and on screen, that there are Jedi that wear their sabers on the right, even if they are in the minority. Like you, I don't have a problem with the question itself. I actually find it very interesting! But the way he wrote his post really bothered me. I would have responded much better if he had worded it differently...basically just put the question out there, because this was his OPINION, and what did everyone else think? I guess what I was trying to say/show in my posts is what you said so well (below). Seems my anger got in the way though and I apologize to everyone for that. i just wanted to say that there seems to be freedom to choose in this aspect as well as many other aspects of the jedi costume. (unless one's aim is to replicate a specific character) But this whole problem can be avoided entirely if people are more careful about how they state their opinions, because there will always be someone who disagrees with them. And that includes me as well, I am certainly not perfect ;D!
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Post by Kyrel-Dak on May 3, 2005 19:40:18 GMT -5
We have found one photo so far and that raises a good question that could have many different explanations. More research is on going. Saesee Tin is an interesting character because most photos of him show him with robe covering belt.
My purpose and tone was to get a response from those who defend the position and everyone scrambled to find evidence which has been good so far. Traditions have also been discussed and there have been many good points to ponder.
However, this thread has illustrated what I have believed all along. My position is that The Jedi Assembly is supposed to be a costuming and prop group devoted to Jedi, this is proven by having some "basic" standards. In my opinion these standards are too low, not in the extreme mind you but some slight tweaks in the standards would improve the look of Jedi costumers. Some look great and have taken very high steps to get to screen accuracy. Others simply don't care about that and want to do whatever comes to mind, and I might add hope to get a pat on the back for their "creativity". Jedi clothing is near about the least expensive costume, allows for some creativity but there are always those who want to push that down to extreme limits.
If standards aren't carefully plotted in the begining of a groups inception then there is mega resistance once a standard is discussed and the bar attempted to be raised, even slight improvements.
If, such a trivial subject like switching a side the lightsaber is worn on causes so much heated debate, even if some of that was to my strong original post then what will happen if it is attempted to raise the bar on the costume standards even slightly.
In some groups standards are strict in the begining and those joining can either rise to meet those standards or choose not to join. Some are just looking for conversation and friends and the message board provides for that, but there are some on here that care a great deal about screen accuracy and are criticized for it from those who don't want to strive for improvement. Which side the lightsaber is worn on requires no money investment and is just a simple switch. It proved though that "if" this had been implemented as "our" tradition then most would ignore it and resist fiercely.
Now, what if it was established as a standard that only brown boots and belts made of leather would be accepted.........this could reguire some to have to purchase or make new stuff. It is stated in the rules no black costumes but we allow black boots and belts. This too would be a minor change, improve the look of some of the costumes and not be terribly expensive (except maybe boots) but would raise the standards slightly. Notice, I am not even tackling the subject of clothing colors. Please do not angrily attempt to turn this issue into another heated thread.
We have only about 130 costumed members which is a minority on the message board but these members represent the primary purpose of this site. I personally came to this site to share ideas and rub elbows with others who take Jedi costuming seriously. I have read with great interest that some have achieved a great look without devoting much money and others have spared no expense. Both of these groups are to be commended for their efforts. I have also noticed though that some wear whatever suits their fancy as long as it barely passes the low minimum standard and some of these believe the standard should be lowered until we just allow anything as a Jedi costume. Take notice too that some of these have been costuming and attending conventions for years but never seem to make any improvements, this is a tremendous problem within the worldwide medieval group I belong to. Forgive the comparison but recently, in that group, some have pushed for higher standards (not by me ironically) after realizing that they have no credibility within accepted historical organizations. These changes are met with either fierce resistance just as with here or with downright ignore. I find this funny as with this group the rules of the convention are taken with such seriousness.
The rules and standards should be periodically updated and revised in order to push forward and improve. Those who resist such changes call this ellitism. I submit that it is not ellitism but just a natural progression to make improvements, or evolution. Members should make these changes on their own but some are always pushing the envelope either upward (as with me, I guess) and also downward. Beware of any downward push.........this causes dissention by some who might leave the organization and create a competitive group in order to make or keep standards higher and more screen accurate. Just like those who believe the standards should be lower can quit and do what they like. Whatever the standards, we can choose to be a part or choose not to join. If standards change then it is our choice to stay or go, or we can just comply.
It is sometimes forgotten that this site attracts those who are more seriously devoted to Jedi lore, costuming and props. This group is often ignored or blasted every time a subject is brooched that hints of improvement. I guess those who want low standards scream the loudest at conformity.
This is not a personal attack on anyone although I am sure that some might take it that way. I believe that while the groups leaders always try and pacify those with low standards those who have higher get ignored. CIII brought many comments to my ears from other dissenters and although it is generally believed that I made that up and the comments came from me I assure you that they did not, although I agree with some of these sentiments. It illustrated that there are others who desire to see standards go up, although like I said earlier, only slight.
As one of the leaders of our local fanforce I have preached the benefits of maintaining high standards. We are small and those here locally have embraced the high standards with enthusiasm. Recently, with the premier coming they have begun to reap the great rewards of such screen authenticity. Being right or wrong never seems to be an issue, only the research and getting to the best, most accurate information. On this thread I have seen people respond with great anger and others who researched the info searching for enlightenment. I too missed the Visual Encyclopedia photo and am still researching its content and existence. Whatever the result it should be posted here so everyone can share.
Perhaps it is important that this is a reminder about the real purpose of any costuming/prop group, although, making friends and having great fun with conversations is a plus, I am reminded each time I view the headings of the thread goups. We are here to educate and enlighten others how to make not only costumes and props for all budgets but also push for the "best" screen accuracy.
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Post by Jauhzmynn Enz on May 3, 2005 20:19:46 GMT -5
All that is very,very true. But never forget the reason for costuming is to have fun. The improvments take time as each person learns of these. Most of the fun is the research on a particular replac costume, then comes the actual construction. But not all can do a replica, mainly not all look like the main charactors. Unless, like me, they want the challenge.;-)
I'm positive that most of the folks here are like me. I don't have much funds and have little time to do full time costuming.(Work, school family etc.) So the costuming is a hobby. Many here are learning skills they'd otherwise neverlearn.Sewing, leather working etc. What got me interested in costuming was seeing the clothing onscreen and going,"Ooo I like that." I then started going to see what I had in the closet to do the outfit. I had a vintage japanese haori. I had all the outer elements,(pants, boots etc.) I taught myself out to reengineer a button down dress shirt into an under tunic.:-D Woo Hoo. Now I'm teaching myself to make a screen accurate under tunic from a modified men's dress shirt pattern. :-D I'm working with Primrodo on doing an accurate Ankain costume. Although I look nothing like him, the fabric hunt is be fun. Considering I have easy access to most of the elements.
What I'm getting to is, a matter of paitence in finding the items. and is a constantly evolving. Nova stated, that a costumer's costume is never 'finished'. As are all of ours.
Your points are very well made.
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Mon-Jas Charan
Message Board Member
"Poena Vigoratus. Pullus cavo vix. Palma , est eternus"
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Post by Mon-Jas Charan on May 3, 2005 20:29:05 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]
After reading the above post, by Kyrel-Dak, several times ... I have to agree ... I believe in having a costume that would allow me to walk on the screen/set. I would rather have to bring my costume up to a standard than be over standard.
[/glow]
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Post by kivaanzion on May 3, 2005 20:55:43 GMT -5
Frankly Kyrel the problem is (to me at least) that your initial post came off sounding like, "why do you poeple insist on doing things the wrong way?"
That can get anyone's guard up. Especially when much time and effort has been poured into one's personal costume.
You also claimed in your first post that,
TND found the evidence, and yet you still would not sway from you opinion. Do you really believe the executives at LFL would turn someone away for wearing their saber on the right (especially when an on-screen character wears theirs on the right)?
I am of the same opinion of Jauhzmynn in that I would love my Jedi robes to be 100% screen accurate, but I am held back because:
1) It would be too expensive for a professional to make for me.
2) I don't have the skill (yet) or enough spare time to do it myself.
So I make do with what I can- many of my costumes can be nitpicked to pieces by those who care. But I believe that capturing the overall look (and most importantly enjoying yourself) takes precedence.
But enough of my ranting. I've looked into one of my books on Japanese swordsmanship in an attempt to explain the left side tradition.
Unfortunately I could not find a direct answer as to why the scabbard is ONLY worn of the left. However it did explain that the sword must be worn in such a way as to allow it to be instantly ready to be drawn in an emergency, and must never be worn in any manner that makes it easy for an enemy either in front or behind to grasp your sword.
Bearing that in mind- if you had your sword on your right, an enemy in front of you (using the element of surprise) could crossdraw your own sword with his right hand.
Kevin
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Post by Jauhzmynn Enz on May 3, 2005 21:32:38 GMT -5
Everyone Opinions are fine and accepted, but please tone down the tone some ok? it's "seems" to be bordering on being rude and flamish. it may not be the case but from my end, it's starting to look it. Now it's only costuming and only a set of movies, are these things worth fighting over? Will this matter in the light of eternity?
Please present things with tact gentlness and without pointing apendages and blame on "So-n-so' started it. Okeyday? We cool? :-D
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Post by Kyrel-Dak on May 3, 2005 21:32:43 GMT -5
As to the photo Ki Vaan Zion........we have one photo and character out of five films so far including all of the Classic Trilogy and that photo is yet unexplained. Hopefully we will know when a few of us finish our research and we can post the info here. It will be answered for all.
As for costuming, I have been most impressed by those who have achieved great looking costumes using the meagerist (if thats a word) supplies. My point is that I know of those who pursue this hobby, who have been pursueing it for many years and still look the same and are happy with what they have. I am not trying to take them apart or offend them but come on..........years.......you can't find a brown boot or a more realistic lightsaber.........or even build a saber out of plumbing parts. If you have only done this a short time you still have time ahead of you to learn and grow. I had a friend some time ago that had zero dollars and build some of the best sci fi costumes by finding scraps and sewing them together, he traded items he could do well to others for things he could not make or acquire. I believe when money, or lack there of is the reason for a costumes shortcomings then take another look. I have seen people who had many items that cost a good deal of money yet their costume suffered while others found a way to scratch and crawl toward better costumes with great effort and achievement. As per my medieval example, I am a big shopper and watched as people spent money on a whim for whatever their hearts desired while wearing a poorer grade clothing. Of course, when and how they spend their cash is flat out none of my business but when it comes to costume quality I will always side with improved standards and if those don't want to go that way they better scream louder to insure better standards don't get passed.
I am of course going to remind you that I am not talking about extreme changes or as one person criticized me, counting stitches. Just some small, reletively easy changes and simple adjustments. Most of us do not resemble screen characters, I do not know how that was assumed but we are creating, each of us, one of the other 9,000 Jedi in the Galaxy. We develope the names, characters and some of us develope the martial skills in pursuit of recreating the Jedi as best we can. It can be very fun to be taken seriously.
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