Fight Safety, very important...

[Aldoshae]

Greetings all,

I've been reading some posts about saber sparring and I felt it might be in best interest to start a new thread and spread the gospel of 100% fight safety.

I posted about this within a thread, and it may begin getting lost in the shuffle...all Jedi with a wish to actually battle with their sabers should read this!

Please remember that every fight in every Star Wars film has been carefully and meticulously choreographed down to the wiggle of Ewan's toes in his boots. These are rehearsed for weeks in super slow motion, and drilled into the brains of the actors, moving up to performance speed only at the last possible moment.

I've been reading posts that truly frighten me for the safety of our friends within the assembly. There is also a feeling of,

"Well, I'm careful, we'll be fine."

I also read another post referring to bringing a child to the hospital three times for dowels in the eye, and they "just don't seem to learn".

This is horrifying.

It may sound like I'm a stage combat teacher seeking work, but heck, don't use me, use any stage combat teacher out there. They are the ones that will help you to look like a Jedi, and remain totally safe while doing it.

Martial artistry is wonderful to study and to get your body able to move and flip and kick like a Jedi...but it is training to actually strike for damage. Take martial knowledge to an SAFD certified stage combat trainer, and roll from there.

Now this is obviously impractical for many who are nowhere NEAR a teacher. I'm going to list some must have books, one of which may be out of print...but it's worth looking for.

First and foremost is "Fight Directing for the Theatre" by J Allen Suddeth. Its ISBN # is 043508674X and it is published by Heinemann. It is essentially a textbook, so it's a little pricey, but worth every penny. J Allen was the president of the SAFD (Society of American Fight Directors) and his book focuses heavy on safety techniques for any kind of fight work.

Another text book style, but solid reference is Dale Girard's "Actors on Guard". The ISBN # is 0878300589 and it's published by Routledge/Theatre Arts Books. This focuses on the use of rapier and dagger...but it outlines movement and parry/attack locations very well!

The possibly out of print one is "Combat Mime" by JD Martinez. I know...it sounds like a story of Marcel Marceau in camoflage...so bear with me.

The ISBN for it is 0882298097 and it's a Nelson-Hall Paperback. It diagrams and defines falls, punches, rolls, and zillions of other stage fight handy to know things. Most martial arts trained Jedi will know some of the stuff in this book (aikido rolls, break falls, etc). The only thing is this may be out of print and hard to find/order.

I apologize for sounding like a soapboxer, or some kind of pretentious actor guy. But I'm am a stage combat teacher who is legitimately concerned for the safety of my fellow Jedi among us here.

I'm begging you, if you choose to put together a duel...choreograph it and rehearse it...uber-slow, and work it up to full speed at performance time. And before you put a dowel in your hands along with a partner please research research research! Research with a capital Knowledge.

If you wish to "spar" please invest in protective gear. Kendo equipment, even a basic fencing mask...the eyes are the most important thing to protect and the easiest to do MAJOR damage to. It is NOT worth it to lose an eye.

A full mask is my highest recommendation...goggles tend to shift too easily and may simply be deflected themselves while allowing a blade to sneak into the corner of the eye (I speak from experience on this one, honest).

Since lightsabers are basically dowels, or poly-carb EL blades, there is not much concern for edges cutting someone, but do be aware of your thrusts anyway. Internal damage is very possible too if you hit the right spot on a lunge.

Thanks for listening to my rant everyone. Please be safe! I truly want to meet all of you at CIII completely intact.

If you have any questions at all about the art of stage combat...please, do not hesitate to drop me an email, and if I cannot answer you, I will put you in touch with a person or place with the answer.

Fight well, fight SAFE!

-Aldoshae (Ken)

[Eqin Ilis]

[glow=blue,3,0000]Uh... I think this belongs in the Cantina, but I may be wrong.

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm just gonna add a few things...

1. If you wanna use dowels, beat up on a tree. They don't bruise as easily as humans. Better idea for sparring: something plastic, or fun noodles with PVC inside.

2. Don't thrust unless you've got a foil or something just as flexible. If you think you get hurt from slash-and-bash... ::shudders:: No thrusting.

3. Read all the books you want, but don't try to teach yourself. Find someone who knows the sport/move, and have them help you. Not only is this safer, they can point out your mistakes so you know what you need to work on.

[/glow]

[Ky-Wan Zann]

Thank you kindly for the guidelines, I know many here are eager to get out and use a saber. I too have been involved with fighting for parades and stage etc. I used to belong to a medieval group that did 'live steel' sword battles.

In fact I'm hoping to become the same thing you currently do.

Choreographers like Nick Powell(the Last Samuari) and Nick Gillard(Star Wars1-2-3) as well as legends like Bob Anderson(LOTR,Darth Vaders fight double) have been doing this for years and as mentioned everythign is slowly taken to learn it from basics, move for move then half speed, then full speed and sometimes if it's too slow they speed the camera up to make it seem faster meanwhile the actors are totally safe.

A lot also goes to the sword masters. They make hero and stunt swords, these are meant to take hits hard and are usually dulled or not sharp to keep injuries from occuring.

Keep that in mind before you grab your home made saber or Bokken and duel, they might break or you might bang up a finger or somethign worse, even the most planned things do have mishaps, actors stilll get hurt , I speak from expereince here.

So please fight safe and thanks again for the reminder.

[Jedi Smudge]

Here are some things that I've learned from experience:
First off, a tiny bit of background, I am a member of a renaissance Faire guild and we do fight with "live" steel, I have been swordfighting (with and without steel) for close to three years now and I do not make the mistake of thinking of myself as anything close to an expert. However I do know a little which might be of use here.

I first started learning (and continue to practice with) a shinai. For those who don't know it is a rattan practice samurai sword used primarily in Kendo. It differs from a dowel or a bokken in that it is made up of four "planks" of flexible rattan, bound wih leather. This design gives it incredible strength as well as the flexibility needed to absorb the shock of an impact. You could whale on one of these things all day and it'll just smile and keep coming, unlike a bokken which will start to splinter and will eventually crack and break.

The groups that I shinai with are very informal and most of the time we don't even wear armor. We stay safe by some very strictly adhered to rules and simple common sense. In three years, the worst injuries I have seen are minor bruises, sore knuckles and one bloody nose caused by an idiot who didn't have a clue what control was and was not allowed back after that.

We do wear gloves when we fight and I highly reccomend them. it's a matter of personal preference as to what type but I reccomend the style used to work out with a punching bag. they offer decent dexterity while still being padded on the knuckles and upper fingers.

When you fight: start slow! the rule we use is 50% speed, 50% power meaning start at what would be 50% ofyour maximum speed and power. If necessary, take it down even more.
NO HEAD SHOTS!!!!!! never strike higher than the shoulders when sparring! there is just too great a risk of serious injury. The only time I would do a head shot is in a carefully coreographed scene when both parties know exactly when and how it is coming and very rarely at that.

NO THRUSTING! even a shinai rammed into someone at speed will crack ribs or worse.

And of course the big one: AVOID THE "NAUGHTY BITS"! both the ones up top and between the legs.

I hope this helps, remember use common sense, keep it slow and safe, leave your anger, frustration and ego at home,don't be an idiot and try some foolish stunt to show off, the battlefield is no place for such things, that's how people get hurt.

Good fighting, good luck and may the Force be with you!

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

Nahh I didn't think you were 'soapboxing'. Just had a real concern and wanted to share, I'm glad you did. LOTS of great information. Thanks for posting it. :-) Espcially the books. Time to go library hunting for me.:-D.

Motor cycle gloves(fingerless) are amazing for sparring.I like those cuz I can still feel the hilt in my hands, and the leather palm keeps it from sliding around.
Plus the hands don't get too hot.(Florida, full gloves are murder in the heat.)


I think there's some swordsmen in the SCA kingdom near me. My problem is transportation to the classes.

I learn a lot form watching talented properly trained swordsmen. In person or in vidoes. AMAZING all the work and training that's put into it. Not to mention a very good workout. :-)

If a lot can make it to Assembly of the Assembly, maybe the sword fighting specilists on the boards would be willing to help some of us Padawans learn how to use the thing right.

[Ky-Wan Zann]

ALways a pleasure to meet another swordsman and Knight. With a few of us here doing these types of things for years and such maybe the Council would allow us to form a sort of committe or Council of Lightsaber fights, basics and safety and etc. So we could show other members when we meet in person so that what they are dealing with some who have at least a slight idea as to what were doing?

Perhaps at some con sometime we could put together a routine with our different forms and etc and put on a show?.

Does that seem like an ok thought or no( for forming a group of people on the boards and members who can be consulted about Lightsaber fighting and other martial techniques?)

If it'; ok lets submit an application to the Jedi Council with our names, some background info on us and perhaps the Council will allow us .

What say you?

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

I think your idea will be well recived and enthusiastically accepted. :-) I do know a few members really wish to do this.
The demonstration would defianly be a good idea. Just have to clear it with the hotel and ConStaff for insurabce matters I bet.

The next con I'll be attending (Lord Wiling) is MegaCon(march 5-7 2004-Orlando FL) along with maybe a couple of TJA members if all goes well. The Con will be in a HUGE convention center, LOTS of open spaces. I'm sure a few of us will find some place to spar without peopel walking between us. Or if the MegaCon staff and/or other costuming groups are game, to do a sabre sparring demonstraition/class in one of the rooms. It's something to think of for MegaCon, Assembly of the Assembly and Dragon*Con.;D

Off hand I know of nearly a dozen people who want to learn to sabre spar properly.
Maybe when all goe swell, we cna learn and start working on some katas and vilocity excersises.:-)

[Ky-Wan Zann]

You really think so?.

I was hoping it might. The only con I might be able to make it to is Dragoncon. I live in Canada so it might be more pricey but I'm doing my best.

Hopefully my robes will be done by that time

I really hope this idea goes over well.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

I do think so.

[Ky-Wan Zann]

Thank you kindly for your confidance in us

[Ky-Wan Zann]

Hopefully we cana ll get in contact with each other to talk routines and basics etc. I didn't know if anyone has read this thread in a long time though.