Quantum Physics and the Force..

[lazlototh]

I am in the middle of Brian Greene's book Fabric of the Cosmos. It deals precisely with this stuff...

As superstring theory deals with quantum in a loveli way, I would like to take a stab, as it were.

As Jauhzmynn has mentioned, we're dealing with particles made of tiny strings, whose 1 (or more!) dimensional vibrations determine the particle's properties... The vibration can be in anywhere from 1 to 11 dimensions (imagine each as a separate axis!).

The three normal dimensions of height, width and depth, with the addition of a fourth temporal dimension span the universe as we see it. In the theory, there are 7 more spatial dimensions. But when the universe was born, with the great expansion of the four time-space dimensions, the other 7 collapsed and shrunk to smaller than the size of the Planck Length (somewhere along the line of 1x10^-33 m), where the distance is too small to measure or detect a particle... What's cool and interesting is that all space, time, matter and energy are all bound through all these dimensions.

What could be the Force is a Higgs field, where inside the distance of the Planck Length throughout all space is the continual turbulence and frothing of virtual particles being created and destroyed, with the turbulence of space at that very small scale.

The possibility of the 7 higher spatial dimensions may be the way all of us our connected through the Force, since those dimensions are so small but all matter and energy pass through them. So we can perhaps explain Force powers as either manipulation of matter/energy in these higher dimensions...

Dang and I haven't even figured in the Uncertainty Principle, Probability Mechanics or Causality...

oof. My head hurts now...

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Hmmmmm, how does the Force operate? I think it's one of those, "It just is" things. Using it seeems to be immediate and in-the-now and NOT a cause-and-effect thing. Of course, Jedi live in a world of "crude matter", so that's how they end up using the Force. I doubt that any Jedi that hadn't passed on like Yoda and Obi-wan could ever have a comprehensive understanding of the Force just because of the nature of their physical lives.

All life creates the Force, and droids.....don't. In one of the earliest scenes in ANH, C3PO and R2D2 get away explicitly because they don't show up as life forms. And droids are defintely cause-and-effect technology. I wonder if Lucas meant any particular symbolism by that?

The midi-chlorian thing lessened the mystery of the Force for me when it was introduced in TPM. But Lucas said in the AOTC DVD commentary that he'd had midi-chlorians in mind all along and I'm quite curious about what more will emerge in the next film. I've always thought that the SW universe civilization is so old and mature that some "Force" has developed, fundamentally connecting all life in that galaxy.

About a real Force, and not a mythical plot driver? I'm not writing any research proposals about it. Science is all about cause-and-effect. Occam's razor applies, and after all the theories get shaved down by experiment and the scientific process to their minima, nothing like the Force makes it through the shakedown.

[Leda EmBorr]

Shatir said:

That empty force is very real as I've actually used it. Not to the extent of knocking a person back, but I have used it. In tae kwon do, at our board breaking seminars, besides the regular breaking, we try to sever a hanging piece of paper (attached to a taut string by one small piece of tape), as well as blowing out candles with a punch or kick several inches away from the candle. Both involve snapping your technique extremely fast. With the paper, you have to focus all your energy into an area the size of a pinhead pretty much. With the candle, once you've punched or kicked, you rechamber your technique as fast as possible. This stinks air away from the flame, and causes it to go out. This is my interpretation at least of what you meant by empty force. Perhaps there is another technique which I have not learned.

yes... this is similar to the dangling board break we did in TKD... You have to snap it real quick and rechamber.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

Alright> :-) ANother who's into super strings.:-)
WHat's funy I actually get what you'er meaning Lazlo.:-)

Machio Kako has books on this subject too. However many scientists are on the fence on 'strins'. Many don't like the therum, others are fine, and some need more proof.(An actual super string.) I guess a mathmatical model isn't enough.


11 dimensional axies, a mind bender huh?

I feel acessing them would lie along the spiritual planes.

Ok I'm familar with Occam's Razor, but please refresh the concept of this please. I haven't access to my physics books and the book 'THe Golden Briad: Godel,)anothr guy) and Bach.)

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Occam's razor---well, it's actually spelled Ockham's Razor, which makes it much easier to find on a search enjine--- is the principle that the simplest possible explanation is the right one. A pretty good explanation of it is at:

phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html

And probably a lot of other places on the web, too. It is the scientific equivalent of the egineering philosophy of K.I.S.S., or "Keep It Simple, Stupid". Don't add a lot of bells and whistles to what you're building, just stick to what you need.

** Beginning rant part of post.....
The Razor has caused fundamentalists of all religions fits throughout history because it has consistently separated science from any type of god concept. The workings of the universe can be satisfactorially explained, tested and used WITHOUT any action of any higher beings at all. So, the Razor cuts out the diety. This is NOT saying that there are no dieties. It just says that we don't have a connection between the scientific explanation of how the universe works and anybody's god(s) concept.

But there are some intolerant fundamentalists who cannot abide the idea that anyone can say that what they believe is not literally true, word for word. Creationism didn't work for them, so now they've re-dressed their scam as intelligent design. The problem is that the intelligent design farce FAILS the Razor test.

Now, lots of pepople see purpose in the workings of the universe. Fine. But that idea does NOT belong in the science class; it belongs in the philosophy class. The minimal explanation about how things work, with no motivation or purpose, works just fine without them. There are no god or goddess variables in the equations.

If fundamentalists want philosophy taught in schools, they should just be honest about it and run the gauntlet of arguments about which philosophy to teach. Instead, they insist on freeloading on the success of science (and it really has changed our world) because they can't tolerate other people not using their basic principles. Well, until they come up with sufficient and credible test results, that other, unconnected people can read about and replicate on their own and then defend in writing and open discussion with many, many other people, and gain a plurality of agreement from the scientific community, they have NOT passed the Razor test. Unless that happens, kick the bums back to the philosophy department.

** Ending rant part of the post....

Now, science is mostly method and process, but Ockham's Razor is one of it's few philosophical points that I embrace, body and soul.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

Ok thanks.
Well time to get this back on topic.
Occam or Ockam's razor may not apply.

Now the midchlorian aspect doesn't spoil anything fo rme at all, It doesn't diminish anymystery, only ina way deepens it. Things are more complexe under the surface then we think.

Looking at ahuman's body for instance. It "seems' simple or even a single cell. Bu tonce one looks deeply into the cell and sees all of these organelles, chemical pumps, ultra small celluar items, it's mind boggling. It could give one a brain cramp.(several hunded in an organ so small one needs a microscope jsut to see it, let alone the parts within.)

Amzing.
Now the evolution, It has it's place. I don't think we'er comsmological accidents. We were created with a purpose and made very well. Micro and macro varients.
One is the darwinian theory, the other merely is the simple adaptation humasn were created with to adjust to changes in weather.

(Example, I live in a warm area. Put me ina very cold cliamte, I'll not liek it but I'll adjsut within a few weeks or a month. Body it add extra layers of sub-dermal fat, blood vessels will sinkfarther under the skin, The dermis itself will thicken. healing will happen at a greater rate. Very cool adpatation tactic God has done.:-D )

[lazlototh]

Occam's Razor is a nice little tool to excise superfluous chunks off of a theory. I like the idea of getting things as simple as possible.

What makes the current quantum theories so attractive is that it binds things like E-M Theory, Newtonian Physics and Relativity with simpler maths than they were generated with. The higher dimensions was the trick, as it were.

I believe Midichlorians aren't the Force, their symbiotic relationship with Force Sensitives is related to how in touch that person is... So the question becomes: How can one person be more in touch with the Force than another?

Maybe the person is sensitive to the Force (Higgs Field?). Since the field is everywhere, penetrating us, surrounding us... A person may have some deeper connection through some alignment of particles in a person at a higher dimension... Given probability theory, it IS possible, however unlikely. I would certainly like to believe this.

Which leads me to another issue: Objectivity in Science. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to be purely objective in observation of phenomena and experiment. It can lead to mistakes in experiment and theory. So a lot of errors may be made before we, as a group of intelligent beings, come to a full understanding of the Universe. I think it's possible.

Expriments need to be devloped that can confirm or deny what we're trying to find out. And in a way that's repeatable and believable... Perhaps the Force is there! And maybe, once detected, we can develop ways to use and let the Force come into us more fully...

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

The one force or the "Holy Grail' theory of physcis. :-D SOme might be scared to venture into that relm. THink of how many people who were thought nuts becasue they suggested a theory that, at the time seemed illogical. Then it is proven to be true years or in a few cases centuraies later.

Midichlorians are simply mitochondria. Cellular batteries that store adn release energy. How one person is 'more sensitive' then another? COuld be they aren't listening. COuld be poor diet, improper care of the body and spirit.(All interconencted.

We'er sill figuring out how things affect the body even down tothe microcellular level.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Yeah, that big, unified field theory is still out of reach. It's that pesky gravity that doesn't fit with any of the microscopic and EM forces. There are some contenders, but nothing that really satisfies and doesn't cause indigestion for many in some ways or others.

That's how science strives for objectiving. The scientific method guides individual conduct in scientific inquiry. But the scientific process is the exchange, comparison, debate and boiling down of ideas into what everyone can agree on. This is the definition for science adapted by the American Physical Society council in 1999.

----
Science is the systematic enterprise of gathering knowledge about the universe and organizing and condensing that knowledge into testable laws and theories.
----

That's why Ockham's razor ends up cutting out diety concepts from science; just try to get diety theorists to agree on what they think is what. Not in this millenium. The speculation about the Force's potential in quantum physics is as credible an idea to me as any other idea....as long as it stays in the speculation department until it passes the dreaded razor test.

Ooooh, and there's always room for Ockham's razor; it's like jello!

[lazlototh]

I think gravity is a by-product of space-time warp as opposed to a true force, much like centrifugal effect. My physics professor would yell every time someone would say centrifugal force. Being an effect in physics requires it not to have a particle nor necessarily be in phase with the other three forces.

Calling it an effect lets it have also the instantaneous effect it has, since gravity has no range limit, so it can affect something very far away as much as very close (except for that inverse square rule part). With no particle, nothing has to break the speed of light for the gravitational effect to work. It could be just an effect of mass warping space time...

Science itself can strive (and may become) objective, but us poor observers stuck in our little bodies on one little planet make it very difficult to get the objectivity we need.

We can't see at quantum levels since are bodies aren't designed to do it, so we must develop equipment that can. Then we must determine results through interpretation of the data we read. The scientific method is great, but it is limited and slowed down by our subjective observations. And given our beliefs, we may distrust/misinterpret the data to read what we want it to. And if the greater scientific community agrees with the original observer's viewpoint, they can be mislead for years until the truth becomes self evident through another process. We cannot blind ourselves with the scientific method and follow it with lemming-like faith. It must be a guide but not the final arbiter. We must determine if it's correct. We must question and try from different points of view. We must become our own Devil's Advocate and try to bring our theories down like skeptics until they no longer can be taken down. We must think like a photon and wonder what it's like to move at the speed of light as opposed to just observing it from outside. We won't get the whole story from one point of view.

As Michio Kaku said, that the closer we get to the theory of everything, we get closer to the mind of God.

To see the Force, we must not only look for it from without, but from within.

[Leda EmBorr]

Pleases excuse me while I prepare my thesis....

[mooglar (Malim Vincible)]

Jeanne Cavelos' The Science of Star Wars, in which I am quoted (plug), posits the same thing as Lazlo and some others, that the Force is the zero point energy field, also called vacuum energy. As a scientist is quoted in the book, "Nothing has a little bit of energy and it's all around us." Of course, we don't know how to access that energy yet, which I suppose would be the trick to learning how to use the Force. Also, the zero point energy isn't generated by life, as far as we know. But maybe that's some kind of metaphor, since, if the Force were truly generated by life, there shouldn't be much Force in the vast, empty interstellar expanses where there's no life to create it, but we know there is because of things like Ben sensing the destruction of Alderaan while in transit in the Falcon.

Cavelos theorizes that perhaps Force users access the zero point energy through manipulation of dark matter or neutrinos, though still it's hard to say how you would do that. She also discusses the idea that the unified force sought in the Unified Field Theory might be the Force.

In terms of midichlorians, the whole midichlorians thing never really bothered me much. To me, the difference between "the Force is with you" and "you have a high concentration of midichlorians" is six of one, half dozen of the other. It's just another way of saying the Force is strong with some people.

But, a lot of people felt the midichlorians took away some of the mystery of the Force. I can understand that. But, I wonder, is that feeling tied to the idea that the midichlorians create the Force, that Force is the midichlorians?

Because that's not necessarily how it is. Qui-Gon says, "the midichlorians tell us the will of the Force," indicating that they are not one in the same.

Maybe the Force is still just as Yoda describes: an omnipresent energy field created by all life, not by the midichlorians. But suppose that the midichlorians do not create the Force, but rather that the Force creates the midichlorians. Suppose that the midichlorians are simply the means by which the Force is able to interface with living beings. The midichlorians are just a means of channeling the omnipresent Force.

Thus, when the Force decides someone will be "strong with the Force," the Force creates midichlorians in order that the Force can communicate its will to that person, and also so that that person can access the power of the Force to accomplish the Force's will.

In this model, all life still creates the Force simply by being alive. Whether a being has midichlorians or not, that being generates the Force and is surrounded and suffused by the Force. But he or she still lacks a means to access the Force. Kind of like being stuck in a raft on the ocean and dying of thirst: though water is all around you, you don't have the capability to remove the salt and turn it into a form you can use.

Using some of the life force generated by living beings, the Force is able to generate life itself: the midichlorians. Because, of course, since the Force is life force, it could only be accessed through something that is alive. And, since turning life force back into living matter uses up a lot of the Force's power, the Force has to pick and choose who will get the midichlorians.

As such, the only function of the midichlorians is to provide the Force access to living beings and provide living beings access to the Force. That is why everyone who is strong with the Force both can use the Force (he or she can access the Force's power) but also is saddled with the burden of hearing the will of the Force (getting visions, Obi-Wan feeling Alderaan's destruction, etc.) The Force gives certain people the ability to use its power but in exchange expects its will to be heard.

I don't know if that would make it any better for the people who don't like the midichlorians. I think it restores some of the mystery if the Force, for no apparent reason, creates symbiotes within the cells of some people and not others. Because the Force is once again the actor and has its own will, rather than just being a side effect of some microscopic organisms.

Also, I think this would solve the "can you clone a Jedi and get more Jedi" or "can you clone the midichlorians and inject them into someone's blood and get Force powers?" questions: No, you can't. The Force creates the midichlorians, so they don't reproduce naturally, and thus aren't replicable. At least not replicable in a way that they still work: the Force could just not allow access through midichlorians created artificially.

And, this theory fits well with the virgin birth idea from EPISODE I, since it presupposes that the Force can create life, if it so wills. So, when Qui-Gon says "it is possible he [Anakin] was conceived by the midichlorians," I think perhaps we could take this as a technical description, sort of like saying a sperm conceived a child. In this case, it doesn't mean that the midichlorians (the sperm) chose to conceive the child. The father (the Force) did that and the sperm (midichlorians) were simply the means. (I am making the Force masculine in this analogy just because it replaces the father in Anakin's virgin birth, but the Force could just as easily take some sperm stored in a sperm bank or something and turn it into a child through reverse parthenogenesis, as happens in James Morrow's Only Begotten Daughter.)

[Shatir Lavan]

I think I said something about this earlier in this thread where in reference to midichlorians and connecting people to the Force, that while we exist in the first 4 dimensions (LxWxHxTime), midichlorians could also exist in other dimensions at the same time, connecting us to that untapped energy field.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

Humm, it's a sticky thing. SOme don't think youcan clone those but in one of the booksthey did. I don't that's truly possible. eventhoughthe genetic material would be identical to the parent donor. Weather the mitocondria or midichlorians are a part of that genetic material. I don't know enough to hazard even a guess. Aswild or hair brained it could be.:-D

[Shatir Lavan]

If midichlorians are like mitochondria then they would be cloned, as they are an organelle in the cell. As Qui-gon said "in your cells" in response to Ani's "they live inside me?".