AotC – Start the War

[Tolif Espen]

I love Attack of the Clones. Now that all six films are out, I rank it as number five or six depending on my mood with The Phantom Menace at any given moment. This isn't discrediting them. All six are in my top 50.

AotC's greatest fault is the beginning of the Clone Wars. During the initial viewing, did anyone understand who was fighting whom and why in the last reel? Suddenly a bunch of strange hardware was throwing itself at other strange hardware, some familiar looking, and all piloted by machine or clone. I knew that what I was seeing was technically well done, somehow important to the mythos, and had powerful implications, but I felt inadequately prepared for it.

Compare it to the battle of Helm's Deep in The Two Towers. There, three hours of film surrounded the final battle, sewn with a sense of dread and hopelessness as the armies of darkness crept closer to the fortress. By the time the first arrow flew, the audience was grabbing their seat, biting their lip, and cowering inside with the children. The battle then had the impact it needed, and we understood who was fighting and why.

In Attack of the Clones, we had been following the mystery of the assassination attempt and the building of a clone army, and Anakin's personal journey, when BAM! All of a sudden we're neck-deep in fighting robots and clones with the poor Jedi lost in the shuffle. It had no warm-up or human interest. Were they fighting to save the planet? Themselves? Why couldn't they just leave if it was a rescue mission? Where did Yoda get all of that hardware along with the clones?

Yes, all of these questions have been answered. I'm not asking for the answers here. A good film should tell us, not leave us to find out in the message boards later.

Opinions?

[Leda EmBorr]

colorscheme said:

I love Attack of the Clones.
AotC's greatest fault is the beginning of the Clone Wars. During the initial viewing, did anyone understand who was fighting whom and why in the last reel? Suddenly a bunch of strange hardware was throwing itself at other strange hardware, some familiar looking, and all piloted by machine or clone. I knew that what I was seeing was technically well done, somehow important to the mythos, and had powerful implications, but I felt inadequately prepared for it.

I was more than adequately prepared, having read the 2 novels that led right into that very scene, and the novelization of the movie itself. Not to mention having watched the Clone Wars Cartoon series, and read all the graphic novels and comics that preceded it.

But... to someone jumping into it cold, I can see how it would be chaotic. I've had to explain what's happening in that scene to quite a few people. You see it's Coruscant, you see them fighting.... and you really have to read the scrolling text! That's key in understanding what's going on if you've been out of the loop for 3 years. All you learn from the dialogue is that their mission is to rescue the chancellor, and that Anakin likes to save everybody.

[Tolif Espen]

Hi Leda! I loved the opening of Revenge of the Sith. Everything was clear. However, my post and the paragraph you cited are all about Epsiode II: Attack of the Clones and the beginning of the Clone Wars on Geonosis. Specifically, the transition from rescuing the Jedi from the arena to the eruption of the ground battle and Trade Federation ships taking off.

[kivaanzion]

AOTC has to have the most convoluted storylines of all six movies. For the uneducated viewer (and by that I mean the average moviegoer who may not be a staunch SW fan)- AOTC can be confusing at best.

Sequels will always face a dilemma: do we explain everything that has happened in the previous films to the audience or not?

Explaining everything usually requires a "dumb" character that will constantly ask "what the heck is going on?" in order for another character to provide an answer (both to the "dumb guy" and the audience). Another way is to create "flashback" scenes through a character's memory.

Hardcore fans usually can't stand that sort of thing: they sometimes feel like they are being treated as children and don't need to be told step-by-step what's going on. It also means that the movie could get bogged down with unnecessary dialogue.

On the other hand, the average moviegoer who hasn't seen the previous film(s) could easily be lost, and subsequently will not enjoy the film at all not matter how good it may be.

AOTC is unique in which not only does Lucas require a moviegoer to have seen the previous films, but has his hardcore fans guessing what is going on as well. The whole Syfo Dias sub-plot could have been a little clearer at first. Count Dooku's involvement had viewers confused as to who's side he's truly on.

I never really thought about how the war started- if I had to guess, I would say that the Separatists began the fighting on Geonosis when the Jedi/Republic rescue team showed up.

Lucas probably could have provided more of an explanation- it seems that Yoda goes off to Kamino and comes back with everything needed to fight the war- no question of why the army was built in the first place, who commissioned/paid for it, and why Kamino itself isn't on any of the starcharts. There isn't any inquiry afterword either (Yoda, Mace and the gang simply accept that Palpatine now has an enormous army of the Republic). It all went by pretty quickly.

I found that AOTC was the weakest of all six films for me. Not to say that it is a bad film, or that I didn't like it, but that it is on the bottom of the list of the Saga.

[Jaren Valnor]

I always thought that Yoda was a bit quick with his trip there...even with a hyperdrive.

[kivaanzion]

kivaanzion said:

I never really thought about how the war started- if I had to guess, I would say that the Separatists began the fighting on Geonosis when the Jedi/Republic rescue team showed up.

When I read this back, I realized just how painfully obvious this answer was (well DUH! LOL! ).

Anyway to elaborate: The Separatists have come to Geonosis to solidify their coalition against the Republic and have brought the majority of their armies with them.

Yoda goes off to Kamino to find out what is going on with this clone army. Mace and the gang head off to save Obi-Wan.

(I would have to re-watch AOTC to be sure of what I'm about to guess next- but I'm a little lazy to pop in the dvd )...

Yoda, knowing the strength of the Separatist forces and that Mace and company can use all the help they can get, brings all the ready units and hardware of the clone army to Geonosis (I guess Yoda believed that the Separatists would be overwhelmed by the size of the clone army). However the Separatist's armies are just as large and as capable as the clone army- so the initial battle is a stalemate so to speak.

[Tolif Espen]

That's a great assessment of Yoda's involvement, space travel timing and logistics aside. It "sinks in" after a few viewings.

And you're helping me to refine my question:

Has anyone felt an emotional tie to this battle? (Even without barring post-viewing discussions and explanations...)

Compare to:
The Battle of Yavin. Now HERE is some good nail-biting. Holy moley does this sequence ramp up the tension so that by the time Han yells "Great shot kid! That was one in a million!" we're crying and yelling it right along with him.

The Battle of Hoth. Menacing, hopeless, frantic... This is the Might of the Empire at its finest, crushing the poor Rebels. We cheer the small victories during the battle but ultimately scramble with Han, Leia, Chewie, and 3PO to get the hell out of there.

The Battle of Endor: Splendor! We have a two-pronged plan of attack and Luke's subplot dominating the second half of the film. Our stomachs drop out when the Emperor announces the Death Star is operational. We cringe in our seats and hold our breaths until Lando spits the Millennium Falcon out in the nick of time, wreathed in flame.

"Attack of the Clones" failed to take us into battle like that.

[Tolif Espen]

And this is not to say I don't enjoy watching the end of "Attack of the Clones." It's spectacular, especially in IMAX. I'm simply exploring my lack or real emotional response to it compared to other points in the saga.

[kivaanzion]

OK I see what you're getting at now.

I think I may have felt some enthusiasm when Padme says, "LOOK!" and we see the gunships move into the colosseum. It is a classic cavalry coming over the horizon to the rescue moment. Seeing Yoda aboard the gunship with his solid-steel countenance was a cool moment as well.

The initial sight of the larger battle was impressive, as well as the Jedi leading the ground troops. I would have preferred to see the Jedi in more of the battle- right up close, slicing and dicing droids and deflecting blaster bolts left and right.

But there certainly wasn't a moment for me in the climax of AOTC that equaled Han shooting the TIE fighter and screaming "YAHOO!" in ANH. Or the Millennium Falcon escaping the fireball just before the Death Star II explodes in ROTJ. Those had me bursting with emotion!

Wait- now I really see what you're getting at. LOL!

We seemed to be thrust into the battle with no real justification as to what's going on. Perhaps more of a build up displaying the might of the Separatist armies would have created a sense of despair- that Obi-Wan and the gang are in serious trouble, and that the meager amount of Jedi Mace has brought with him would not be enough. It would have made the appearance of Yoda and the clone army a much more powerful moment.

[Leda EmBorr]

colorscheme said:

Hi Leda! I loved the opening of Revenge of the Sith. Everything was clear. However, my post and the paragraph you cited are all about Epsiode II: Attack of the Clones and the beginning of the Clone Wars on Geonosis. Specifically, the transition from rescuing the Jedi from the arena to the eruption of the ground battle and Trade Federation ships taking off.

Ah, ok... (oops)

I see your point about the Geonosis arena, but I never viewed it as confusing. I just never thought about it, really. Although, focused on the strategic battle (who was fighting who), I may not have been.

But did I have any emotional attachment to this battle? Definitely yes! It was the end of peace in the galaxy. It's the first time we see Jedi being killed fighting a war for the republic... exactly what Mace Windu told Palpatine they couldn't do--- "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." And also what Qui-Gon told Queen Amidala in TPM : "We can't fight a war for you." But suddenly, and unexpectedly, they were.

The Jedi were thrown into battle in an attempt to rescue one of their own.... set up so perfectly by Palpatine's evil genious.

[Tolif Espen]

Great observations from both of you.

You're right, Ki-Vaan. If the stakes were poised more poignantly, then the audience would be in anguish and whisper to themselves "Please don't let this war begin please don't let this war begin..." Until that moment of no return when like it or not the war had begun.

That script would have let everyone feel as Leda does, immediately and universally (and by universally, I mean no one had to "discuss" the Death Star battle so their friend could slap his forehead and say, "Oh! Yeah, that was pretty cool!"

To Leda's point... It's also important to think of the Battle of Naboo as a simple little skirmish. You're right. The Battle of Geonosis was the irrevocable, galaxy-wide trigger. It was Germany invading Poland. Or maybe from an Amrican point of view, Pearl Harbor. No one's life was the same after that.

[Nova Darklighter]

I certianly felt it in my guts, watching Jedi die. I was in tears the first time I watched that scene.

[kivaanzion]

I've been giving this some more thought.

Part of the lack of impact for me was the droid army itself. The Trade Federation's battle droids have been represented as being inferior ever since the opening scenes of TPM. And the opening sequence of ROTS has them acting like the Keystone Cops. They have become a mild form of comic relief (ironically- the comedy is amid violent acts from our heroes).

The leaders of the Separatists really looked like a sci-fi version of the criminals from "D.ick Tracy" comics...

There is the slim-faced Banking clan leader (how can you possibly take this guy seriously?); the Techno Union leader- who can't get out a sentence without his voice going astray like a shoddy old radio; and Nute Gunray who has become a bit of a comedic villain himself.

Quite the motley crew. In fact the only worthy villains were Dooku and Jango.

The bits with Threepio didn't help the impact of the colosseum sequence either.

In fact, only the Super Battle Droids had some dramatic impact for me- they were pretty mean looking. The other weapons of the Separatists (such as the spider-droid tank and dual-wheel missile droids) appeared to me as being "cool-looking hardware", rather than something fearsome (unlike the effect of a mere 5 AT-ATs during the Battle of Hoth- could you imagine 100 of those lurching over the horizon!).

[Tolif Espen]

Oooh. I just had goosebumps thinking about the Attack of the Hundred Walkers. Imagine how the ground would shake.

At some point I'm going to start a thread devoted to 3PO. But in brief, I couldn't agree with you more regarding his switched body routine throughout the arena battle. It annoyed the hell out of me. It was amusing when he was knocked around in the droid factory. Then, they kept going with it... and going with it... horribly, until his one-liners became worse than Schwartzenegger's Mr. Freeze in Batman and Robin.

Worse, though, was all of the screen time 3PO took from the poor Jedi who were relegated to background shots. Let's take a step back. I concede that The Phantom Menace was the warm-up act. We waited 16 years to watch the Jedi in their prime and had to sit on our hands through Act I (happily distracted by Obi-wan and Qui-gon in action). So we waited three more years, sat down for Attack of the Clones, were relieved that Jar Jar is mostly absent from the film, and leapt up and down when Mace Windu marched down the corridor to Dooku's box and ignited his saber at Jango's throat. Then that unforgetable moment when all of the Jedi around the arena lit up and the heroic Braveheart-style charge into the line of battle droids.

Then... A strange kind of soup. Kit Fisto has his killer smile moment. Mace decapitates Jango. Obi-wan tears apart his area monster. All great moments. And C-3PO? We labor through his head on a BD and his body with a BD head, which is just silly to begin with.

Why not let us see Ki-Adi-Mundi in action and working with the other Jedi instead of just a walk-on? It was a lot to chew. The bottom line for all of the prequels is: What they did well, they did VERY well. But the highlights are tarnished by a few really bad decisions. Or as Grady Tripp would say, lack of decisions.

I didn't feel the wrench in my gut like Nova Darklighter. I couldn't. I was sad to see fallen Jedi, but I more upset because I had no emotional attachment to them as characters, as people, or as a group. Even with how well the Order 66 montage was exectuted (very, very moving), I couldn't help but to think, "Ah, there goes Ki-Adi-Mundi... I barely knew ye." The films should not depend on the EU to bouy them up.

I just remembered one of the most distracting parts of both Episode I and Epsiode II: THAT PIECE OF MUSIC! Williams wrote an extended cue that they first used during the Podrace. Then they used it again during the Gungan battle. I was horrified to hear it yet again during the arena battle. It's one thing to reprise a theme, but this was pure, lazy, sloppy cut-and-paste.


Ha. I should pause. And mention again that I love Star Wars and I DO adore Attack of the Clones.

[Nova Darklighter]

I didn't need to know them, they were Jedi.
Oddly, I've always been a bit put off by C3PO, but I've always liked R2, Iwas never as bothered by JJ as I was by 3PO.
I love all 6 of them, but they're just 1 long movie really!
Cool, the NYLine is having a get together tomorrow morning, I can go for an hour before work, that will be fun!