Undertunic Fabrics -- bourette silk

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

According to "Dressing A Galaxy", Qui-Gon Jinn was wearing a "jersey silk bourette undershirt". So, you know I just had to find out what that is. So, after poking around on the internet, this is what I got....

"jersey" refers to the weave. It's like sweaters, except obviously from pictures of the costume, it's a very fine weave, so fine that the fabric looks smooth at first glance until you take a closer look. However, it would have some stretch to it. THAT is important for making a costume. The undertunic fabric should have some stretch, which makes sense for the sleeves that are tight at the cuffs.

"silk bourette" as far as I can tell, refers to the type of silk fiber used. It's made from the rough outer parts of the silk cocoons. I've seen some references to it being made from wild silk, but I don't know if that's necessary for it to be "bourette".

The only hits I got for "silk bourette fabric" on ebay were for "bobbly silk bourette" to make "nappy liners" out of. The seller extolled the virtues of this silk's ability to prevent "nappy rash". This stuff had a plain, course weave, not the jersey weave that would have some stretch to it, but it obviously must be soft. The seller was British. In fact, most of the internet hits I got for "silk bourette" were for thread, yarn and and/or were in Europe. I don't think it's common in the US, or if it is, it's under a different name, but I don't know what that would be.

So, what kind of fabric is good for making undertunics out of? Well, personally, I think the most important issues are color, texture and comfort. It has to fit the Jedi color requirements. It must look like a natural fiber fabric. And if you're smart, get a natural fiber -- your costume will be incredibly hot and uncomfortable if you use anything synthetic.

Now, from the book, it looks like the Jedi in the movies are done mostly in silk and silk blends for their tunics (though Mace Windu's looks like a rough weave wool from the picture) and wool for the robes. But I really don't think that silk is necessary; cotton is a perfectly good and affordable natural fiber alternative. Of course, that said, I've noticed that natural color silk noil (used for Qui-Gon's outer tunic) is $3-4/yard at thaisilks.com. In the past ten years, silk has become much more common and affordable, 'cause it comes from China.

Alas, I did not see any reference to what any other Jedi undertunics are made out of in the book. The book is somewhat deficient in specific infromation about costume fabrics. That said, the most important feature of the book are the incredibly detailed photos. The look is the most important thing. The other specifications are variable, especially since the wearing and washing requirements for a hall costume that is meant to be worn in a room full of people are very, very different for a costume that only has to look good on film.

I would be curious if anyone finds any stretchy-weave, silk or silk blend fabric and what it's called. Qui-Gon's undertunic must be fabulously soft and comfy. And since Liam Neeson had to wear it under all those other clothes in 120 degree heat in Tunisia, it must be as cool as you could get under those conditions.

[JediKai]

I agree. I, too, did the same google search on the fabrics and got the same hits. However, one site I read indicated that bourette is another term for noil.

My initial excitement is starting to dull. Now that I've read most of the book, I really, really wish, that for the cost, we'd gotten more text on the details of the costumes. Photos only go so far. Swatches only go so far. Another failing is the swatches aren't labeled as to exactly which parts of the costume they are. We are left to assume and to guess. In some cases it's obvious, in others, it's not.

There are only one or two places where it mentions the fabrics out of which some of the Jedi costumes are made. Of what fabric are Mace's and Jocasta Nu's made? I always thought in the high res photos of Gui-Gon's the over tunic fabric looked like linen, but the text says it's silk.

I'm beginning to think I still didn't get all the information I wanted.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Oh, I'm sure I didn't get all the information I wanted! Unfortunately, I'm sure that some of the things I want don't exist. From the book, it looks like all of the movie costumes are tailored to the actors (even the extras with no lines) so I doubt that there are specific patterns for the costumes. Asolutely nothing looks like it's off the rack and a lot of it was made on a deadline. The Lucasfilm people seem to be good about archiving costumes, but when they're doing a movie, writing things down comes second to getting it done.

"Dressing A Galaxy" is basically a coffee-table book aimed at fans and the general public and those are always long on flashy visuals and light on details. It won't have close-ups of seams or cuffs or the back of Obi-Wan's obi or the ankles of his boots. Only the flashy sewing and fabrics will get close ups, not the contstruction details, which would need many pictures to be meaningful anyway. Or any of the Jedi wearing just their pants and undertunics. But I know a whole LOT more than I did, especially about the differences between hall and film costumes (they didn't pre-wash Obi-Wan's robe material for TPM? and putting the costume of a major character into a washing machine is considered dangerous?).

I've gotten a few hits online for "jersey silk" and I think I might try some. I need to replace an undertunic that I got rid of anyway (It was made from the remains of a bathrobe that was the right color, so no big loss there). All of my undertunics are improvised or re-made from less successful Jedi costume attempts, and I need to make one from a real pattern which is what got me started on this in the first place. I'll do one in cotton to replace one of the re-made ones (fabric with stretch to it is more important than silk, I think, for an undertunic) and then try the silk and compare the two.

Leda's discussion about how cool and comfortable the silk lining on her tunic is has got me thinking. Jersey silk might not be quite soft enough for a baby's bottom like Qui-Gon's undertunic, but with a few washings it should be pretty close.

[Jan-Qui Coran]

I've made 1 under tunic of the raw silk noil--it's still in need of the finishing touches but I wore it for a short time last night while showing it to somebody & it felt perfectly comfortable. I was concerned how the long sleeves would feel & they felt fine. How it will be in different temps that something I'm not sure of at present.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Well, I did do a little more follow up on the undertunic fabrics. I got some jersey silk (100% silk). It's a heavier silk in a stretch weave. Alas, I don't think it's good for a Jedi undertunic because it has a slight glossy shine to it. But it goes through the washing machine just fine and will make fabulous and wonderful undergarments for other costumes for me.

BTW, the Obi-Wan undertunic fabric swatch in the 'Dressing A Galaxy' book DOES have a stretchy, jersey weave to it. It's a safe bet that it is silk since Trish Biggars prefers that for Jedi, but without taking a match to it, I can't swear to it. However, while it is made from smooth, even fibers, it does NOT have any kind of shine to it like the jersey silk I found and it is a little heavier. I'll try a little dye on a small sample piece of my jersey silk, but I doubt that this will kill the satiny look. The gloss comes from the threads themselves and I don't think dye will change that.

(Anakin's undertunic swatch has only a little stretch to it and it's made of thinner material with an interesting texture to it, not smooth at all like Obi-Wan's. The stretch in Obi-Wan's undertunic comes from the jersey weave. The stretch in Anakin's comes from the interesting texture, like crinkle cotton.)


Some definitions for silks at:

www.ae-thai-souvenirs.com/index_frames_javascript.html?InformationAboutSilk.html

--Bourette Silk: a high quality fine weaved silk.

--Noil is sportier in appearance and created by short fibers, often from the innermost part of the cocoon. Has the look of hopsack but much softer.

--Haspel Silk: silk made of the outer threads of a coccoon. Non regular, thicker threads.


This definition for bourette silk doesn't seem to agree with any other definition that I've found on the web, unless by "fine" they mean "expensive". That does seem to hold true wherever I look.

On one page, loaded with an overload of details about silk production:

www.oldandsold.com/articles04/textiles16.shtml

"Cocoon wastes.-The portions that are not reeled are used in making coarser yarns by carding, combing, and spinning as with the other textiles. The longer fibers are often carded and combed as in making worsteds. This sort of silk is known as florette silk. Shorter fibers which may only be carded and then spun are called bourette silk. The general names for both varieties are silk waste, floss, schappe, or echappe."


This matches with other references I've found for bourette silk on the web.

I've found multiple sellers in the UK for plain weave, bourette silk nappy liners. They like the advertise the health benefits of natural fibers.

One seller in Denmark offering finished bourette silk shirts:

www.masshemd.de/english/aktuell.html

says.....

"Bourette-silk is the name of shortfibred rawsilk, a natural product of the silkworm. It combines the free flowing lightness of silk with the originality of a natural product. We offer you this silk in its natural color as a shirt for leisure wear. It fulfills the highest demands for quality and pleasure.
Although Bourette-silk is quite rare on the world-market, we managed to buy a limited quantity of this precious natural product for a very good price. "


Hmmmmm, looks like bourette silk is really hard to find wherever you are. It seems to be sold as if it were "organic silk". Sellers always seem to emphasis it's natural properties. And it never seems to be cheap. I found one web site with hand-woven, bourette silk scarves for $136 Canadian.

But all the pics of bourette silk products look a LOT like silk noil. Whatever the difference is between noil silk and bourette silk, it's not obvious in pictures. In fact one web page:

www.suehileyharris.co.uk/silknoilinfo.html

equates noil and bourette...

"Short, knotty silk left in the combs when silk waste is combed to produce combed silk tops is known as noils or bourette silk. The texture and appearance of noils varies and the character of each noil is determined by the type of waste predominately used for its manufacture. "


BTW, the jersey silk I have is clearly made from the fibers of the cocoon itself (which accounts from it's sheen) and not the rough waste fibers.


So, where is this all going? Well, other than me getting through my obsession about Qui-Gon's undertunic in a costume-productive way ;D ....

I think that the most movie-accurate (and comfortable) material for an undertunic would be a natural fiber in a jersey weave, or a loose, textured weave. The stretch quality to the fabric would make it more comfortable to wear as and undertunic and help with fitting the tight sleeve cuffs.

Silk is good, and more affordable these days (since lots of it comes from China), but both the jersey and the textured weave are very hard to find in silk. But both weaves are easy and cheap to find in 100% cotton. I've never heard of either weave in linen or hemp, but I suppose it's possible. A blend of any combination of silk, cotton, linen and hemp is possible as well (naturally we exclude wool for wearing next to the skin).

But, if anyone ever finds raw or noil silk in a jersey weave, I'd love to hear about it.

[Schph Gochi]

sigh....
you are so right....I already decided that we will never probably achieve the exact fabric....

and that photos can be a real waste of time.....

I had the same head-scratching moments when looking at the swatches...some swatches were a no brainer...the others...as noted...one was left to "assume"....

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Well, I'm not horribly disappointed that the actual movie fabrics are so hard to find. The specs for the movie costumes are very different from my specs as a hall costumers. The top one being that my costumes must be machine washable, and that didn't seem to be a priority for the movie costumes. And up close in person is not the same as up close on a movie screen, too. It will be amusing to occassionally look for fabrics like the movie ones, but I won't be too disappointed about not having them. If I found them, it's unlikely I'd be willing to pay the likely high cost as well. But I'd love to feel them.

I wonder what you'd call the color of Mace Windu's tunic? From the close-up photos, that's the closest you could get to plaid without actually having a plaid.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

This is just a follow-up on my undertunic fabric search.....

thaisilks.com has 100% silk knits. That is probably the closest one might find to jersey silk bourette. So many times when you find a stretch silk it has some small percentage of spandex or lycra in it. This stuff is listed as being all silk in a stretchy weave. They have two weights of it, for $20 and $30 a yard. Ouch.

The lighter weight stuff looks too even and regular and probably has a natural sheen to it like the jersey silk I have. The heavier stuff looks less even and a little more nubbly, so it might have a matte finish. But I can't tell from the picture. If it does have a dull, matte finish then this is about as close as you're likely to find to jersey silk bourette. I think I'll inquire, but the price is a little daunting. It's only 49" wide, but it comes in a tube -- don't know if that's the width laying flat or the circumference, but you'll likely need 3 yds just to make sure you had enough. Sleeves can take up a bit of fabric. And it only comes in black and white, but white, 100% silk can be dyed easily.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Another follow-up..... I just found 100% organic, bourette silk t-shirts on e-bay. They're not what I want and $39 is pretty high for a t-shirt, even from Italy, but somebody is making something out of bourette silk. Now if they just sold the fabric.

[Kyle Skirata]

Right now my under tunic is that silly "dicckey" from the Simplicity pattern. If I was to have someone make a REAL under tunic, what should I be shopping for? (I tried my hand at the sewing thing and didn't fare so well.)

I found a really authentic looking material that I used for my Halloween costume. It was in a local shop, so I'm not sure what it was actually, but it was only $3.50 per yard. The only problem was that it was very, very thin. Just using one layer wasn't enough. I'd like to use this fabric for more than just my under tunic as well. Is it difficult to make a "liner" or perhaps to double up the fabric? Sorry I don't have a better image than this, but my obi, tabbards and tunic were made out of this material here:
www.freak23.com/images/halloween_2005/images/DSC02966.jpg

This was for Halloween, so I feel like I need to state that I didn't have time to make the full tunic from the simplicity pattern and I have a brown thermal undershirt on (and a wig, too).

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

For the undertunic, you really want a natural fabric,, like 100% cotton or silk. You want material that will breath. A synthetic fabric will make the whole costume too warm. Don't forget to pre-wash, too.

If you have fabric that is too thin, that's usually OK for an undertunic. All you have to do is double (or triple) it at the sleeves and the collar and front part. the rest of the undertunic doesn't show anyway.

Your costume was OK for a quick, Halloween job. But that Shaa'ti you're standing next to is very eye-catching. Looks like you had a group.

[Kyle Skirata]

The Shaak Ti is what took up all of my time - preventing me from a completed "simplicity pattern" tunic. ;D

I made the head from a wire-frame and papier mache. Here's what it looked like before completing the lekku:
www.freak23.com/images/halloween_2005/images/DSC02957.jpg

I saw some silk at the fabric store the other day that looked kind of crinkly - I didn't check the price. I think to get a dark brown under tunic in silk, I will most likely need to dye the fabric. What do you think?

Thanks for your reply!

[JediKai]

Nice, but lightweight, raw silk in many colors can be had quite inexpensively at Thai silk:

www.thaisilks.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TS&Product_Code=0020

[Kyle Skirata]

Excellent! I can't wait to find out how much I need to order!

Thanks, Kai!

[Primrodo]

Just to throw in, I got some accurate Anakin Inner tunic, Silk Crepe, and it feels VERY nice on the skin and is really light too