New Catagory for Sabers needed

[Leda EmBorr]

tanzanlinnear said:

Those are indeed good suggestions, although my idea for an additional category, was not to distinguish between the parts and methods used to make the saber, but the outcome, and the appearance of the finished saber.

Tanzan, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that what you were originally asking was for us to come up with a definitive name for sabers that are made from found parts (like most of the original OT props were) and constructed seamlessly, so that they really look like something from a galaxy far far away, with no earthly parts recognizable. I'm not sure if there is a term for sabers like that. Can anyone think of one?

To be honest, when I first got into this, I pictured a hardware saber as a collection of pipes and gaskets and faucet knobs glued together, which some are, but I think the term has grown to cover a wider scope of fan-made sabers.

Now, I see four distinct categories based on appearance (and many sub/crossover categories thereof):
1. Typical hardware saber
2. Classic found parts saber
3. Machined saber/original design
4. Licenced movie prop replica


Also, I think you were suggesting (and maybe this is how everyone interpreted it) that we create a category to distinguish certain hardware/found parts sabers from others based on the workmanship, that is, how well the parts are disguised, or integrated into the saber, and you were looking for ideas as to how that can be done.... like, what can we call a really good fan built saber, as opposed to the one that looks like it was assembled in ten minutes at Pop's hardware store.

I do understand your reason for wanting to give extra recognition to expert looking pieces, and I think we already do that, there's just not a name for them. When someone asks you to make them a saber because they like yours so much, that's recognition, and in my opinion, the highest compliment that you can get. When you post a tutorial, and someone follows it, that's recognition too.

I know that other prop forums have competitions and all, but speaking personally, I don't think that labeling people's sabers outright would benefit this group, and here's my reasoning---

Lightsabers are a very personal thing, we all know that. The effort one puts into making a saber far outweighs the outcome of it. Often, we think the saber we have made is the best looking in the world, when maybe to everyone else it looks like a broken bit of vacuum cleaner hose with beads glued onto it. I believe that to rate something like this is to discredit it. Also, which looks better--- a bright shiny Master Replicas saber on your belt, or a baubly sink pipe? I know that's an extreme example, but it shows that it's totally a matter of opinion. I am not a very competitive person myself, and I think if I were starting out on a forum that classified sabers according to appearance, I would be afraid to post a picture of mine. Not that everyone is like that, but you get the idea. If we want competition and ratings, there are other places we can go to for it. I think here, it's more about the process.

On the other hand, classifying lightsabers for construction method would be useful to someone looking to get ideas. I think most people do post their method along with the picture of their saber. Hey, we all like to boast about stuff we're proud of!

Now I'm asking: Do we need to adopt a specific set of terms for saber building methods? In my mind, they are the four saber types I just listed. (Oh, and add cast resin saber to that list. Guess that makes it five!) Someone else's vision might be different. As long as they explain what they mean, is that enough?

[tanzanlinnear]

jedi12 said:

well I gyess we disagree because as far as I am concerned everything is fine the way it is and I also speak for a number of others that have read this thread but just never posted because they think that it is a waste of time

If others feel that way, then maybe they should have said so as well, it would certainly sound more convincing than "Loads of people feel this way, they just can't be bothered to post..." You may be happy with the classification of sabers, but I though they could be better classified according to quality of finish, with more than two catagories. It's not as if I've tried to say that anyone not having a 100% authentic MR saber can't join, I really don't understand why you're being so beligerent and hostile about the subject.

[tanzanlinnear]

ledaemborr said:

Tanzan, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that what you were originally asking was for us to come up with a definitive name for sabers that are made from found parts (like most of the original OT props were) and constructed seamlessly, so that they really look like something from a galaxy far far away, with no earthly parts recognizable. I'm not sure if there is a term for sabers like that. Can anyone think of one?

To be honest, when I first got into this, I pictured a hardware saber as a collection of pipes and gaskets and faucet knobs glued together, which some are, but I think the term has grown to cover a wider scope of fan-made sabers.

Now, I see four distinct categories based on appearance (and many sub/crossover categories thereof):
1. Typical hardware saber
2. Classic found parts saber
3. Machined saber/original design
4. Licenced movie prop replica


Also, I think you were suggesting (and maybe this is how everyone interpreted it) that we create a category to distinguish certain hardware/found parts sabers from others based on the workmanship, that is, how well the parts are disguised, or integrated into the saber, and you were looking for ideas as to how that can be done.... like, what can we call a really good fan built saber, as opposed to the one that looks like it was assembled in ten minutes at Pop's hardware store.

I do understand your reason for wanting to give extra recognition to expert looking pieces, and I think we already do that, there's just not a name for them. When someone asks you to make them a saber because they like yours so much, that's recognition, and in my opinion, the highest compliment that you can get. When you post a tutorial, and someone follows it, that's recognition too.

I know that other prop forums have competitions and all, but speaking personally, I don't think that labeling people's sabers outright would benefit this group, and here's my reasoning---

Lightsabers are a very personal thing, we all know that. The effort one puts into making a saber far outweighs the outcome of it. Often, we think the saber we have made is the best looking in the world, when maybe to everyone else it looks like a broken bit of vacuum cleaner hose with beads glued onto it. I believe that to rate something like this is to discredit it. Also, which looks better--- a bright shiny Master Replicas saber on your belt, or a baubly sink pipe? I know that's an extreme example, but it shows that it's totally a matter of opinion. I am not a very competitive person myself, and I think if I were starting out on a forum that classified sabers according to appearance, I would be afraid to post a picture of mine. Not that everyone is like that, but you get the idea. If we want competition and ratings, there are other places we can go to for it. I think here, it's more about the process.

On the other hand, classifying lightsabers for construction method would be useful to someone looking to get ideas. I think most people do post their method along with the picture of their saber. Hey, we all like to boast about stuff we're proud of!

Now I'm asking: Do we need to adopt a specific set of terms for saber building methods? In my mind, they are the four saber types I just listed. (Oh, and add cast resin saber to that list. Guess that makes it five!) Someone else's vision might be different. As long as they explain what they mean, is that enough?

Once more, you have perfectly understood my intention and sentiment perfectly, most specifically,:

ledaemborr said:

sabers that are made from found parts (like most of the original OT props were) and constructed seamlessly, so that they really look like something from a galaxy far far away, with no earthly parts recognizable.

Yes, that was my intention My suggestion for that additional catagory name is 'Hand Made' as it describes the process exactly, recognizing the result, not the parts going into it.
[Edit to fix quote]

[Primrodo]

Well thats all that 'hardware' means, custom and hand made. i don;t think muliple categories will help at all...especially places like ASAP, the RPF and its ilk.

[jedi12]

I'm not meaning to be beligerent and hostile I am just voicing my opinion and the opinion of some others that just don't think it's just not worth the to post. I'm sorry if offended you or upset you in any way. I just don't think we need another catagory for sabers.

[Leda EmBorr]

primrodo said:

Well thats all that 'hardware' means, custom and hand made. i don;t think muliple categories will help at all...especially places like ASAP, the RPF and its ilk.

Yeah, it seems to be an umbrella term.... it covers just about anything. I've never spent time reading the RPF or any other prop forums, so I'm not familiar with their categories first hand. Almost all fan made sabers are hand made, whether you use found parts or the typical BYB hardware, or mix and match machined parts with other bit of junk.

So what would you call the sabers created for the original trilogy? Recycled parts sabers?

[Leda EmBorr]

What would you call mine?

It's machined--- by whom, I don't know. I totally gutted the electronics and reassembled the body. I found a blue led within a pen-light housing and used the whole assembly as my light source since it fit perfectly inside. I added a gemstone and a switch, and painted parts of it brass and copper for variety. I took off the d-ring, drilled a hole, and added a covertec button. I filed down sharp edges by hand. I couldn't make a tutorial for it because it all came together by chance.

If I had to choose a category outright, I would say it was machined, but like the term "hardware saber", it does little to describe how much thought and hand work actually went into it.

I don't think one name can be assigned to a process like that, really. I think that's where the saber has to speak for itself.

[jedi12]

right i agree leda

[tailonkae]

I agree with Leda...just keep the lightsaber catagory the same way it is...to judge another lightsaber is to belittle the creator of it...whether it be the original creator or the person who modifies it....

[Primrodo]

Well see there really only two categories....

Replica and Custom.

Under both there are numerous ways to create each saber and I don't think there is a classification. Leda yours seems more machined than hardware, but the OT would be found parts and therefore hardware-esque. Made from existing hardware.

Now lets not forget that the PT sabers have found parts on them as well...LED's the knobs and such are all found and not hand made...these woudl still be machined sabers though.

Honestly if anything teh divisions are just Replica and Custom on teh forums, then hardware and machined. The classification may not be descriptive, but thats where you come in in the telling on how your saber was made...

[Qui-Kel Jinn]

I agree with Leda also. How would you feel If someone said that because of the way your saber looked that they wanted it classified different than theirs. It would make you feel like they think that your saber is just a big pile of sh** AND you would be affended so watch how you word what you have to say about other members sabers

[Don Solo]

wow, this is quite the can of worms that he opened... I put a little thought into it and came up with a pretty simple way to clarify what sort of sabers there are:
Lightsaber Categories:

1. Replica – accurate reproduction of an established lightsaber design
1.1. Professional – complete replica made for commercial sale
1.1.1. Licensed – official prop replicas
1.1.2. Unlicensed – independently crafted replicas
1.2. Fan made – accurate replica built by a fan
1.2.1. As built – assembled from found parts identical to original
1.2.2. Hardware – recreated with found parts not used on the original
1.2.3. Cast – pulled from an accurate full saber mold
1.2.4. Machined – machined to exact specs of original
1.2.5. Kit – assembled from commercially made parts
1.2.6. Hybrid – any combination of the previous subcategories
1.3. Modified Professional – a commercial prop altered for higher accuracy
2. Custom – a new design not featured in the official Star Wars universe
2.1. Professional – commercially finished props
2.1.1. Stock – mass produced custom design
2.1.2. Personalized – unique design finished by a professional
2.1.2.1. Modified Stock – alteration of a mass produced design
2.1.2.2. Original design – completely original design
2.2. Fan Made – complete prop built by a fan
2.2.1. Hardware – assembled from found parts
2.2.1.1. Basic – simple design, most part origins are obvious
2.2.1.2. Advanced – constructed so that few or no part origins are clear
2.2.2. Machined – created through lathing or milling solid material
2.2.2.1. Basic – simple design, few changes made to material shape
2.2.2.2. Advanced – very detailed features, possibly multiple materials used
2.2.3. Kit – constructed from various commercially available parts
2.2.4. Hybrid – any combination of the previous subcategories

© Don Solo



Of course, that doesn't go into the types of blades you can use

[tanzanlinnear]

primrodo said:

Well thats all that 'hardware' means, custom and hand made. i don;t think muliple categories will help at all...especially places like ASAP, the RPF and its ilk.

Maybe it's just the connotations of the word 'hardware' from seeing sabers in the custom saber competition that have looked... shall we say 'less than professional'... Like that saber you linked to previously showed, it is possible to make a saber from 'hardware' parts, but have an outcome that still looks 100% professional, and a saber of that caliber, although it's interesting to hear that it was made by 'hardware' means, deserves to be given a catagory that recognizes that detail and professionalism.

jedi12 said:

I'm not meaning to be beligerent and hostile I am just voicing my opinion and the opinion of some others that just don't think it's just not worth the to post. I'm sorry if offended you or upset you in any way. I just don't think we need another catagory for sabers.

Perhaps I was being overly sensitive, I just don't like it when people say 'Other people have said...' I guess I've just always prefered to hear people's opinions directly from them.

ledaemborr said:

Yeah, it seems to be an umbrella term.... it covers just about anything.

Precicely. There are various catagories for the levels of detail or customization in costumes, rather than using blanket terms.

ledaemborr said:

What would you call mine?

I'd still consider it to be machined.

quikeljinn said:

How would you feel If someone said that because of the way your saber looked that they wanted it classified different than theirs.

It would depend on if their saber was made in a similar way or had a similar finish. If they were clearly different, then I'd expect them to be classed differently. If it was a small difference, then I'd leave the classification in the hands of moderators to decide upon.

quikeljinn said:

It would make you feel like they think that your saber is just a big pile of sh**

If my saber was a pile of sh1t, (and I admit, I've made some that were) then I'd probably agree with them. If it wasn't, and others had been complimentary of it, then I would ignore it as an unconstructive comment.

quikeljinn said:

so watch how you word what you have to say about other members sabers

Actually, I haven't actually said anything about other member's sabers, so don't tell me to watch what I say. There are some sabers that I think are not particularly good, but I've kept my opinion to myself (other than when opinions are specifically asked for, and even then, I have been mindfull of other's feelings and been as positive with my comments as possible.) From the pictures I've seen of it, I think your saber is excellent, and I'd guess that it was machined, but if it wasn't machined, it must have been put together and finished by hand, which by some definitions would make it 'hardware', but because it's been finished so well, it deserves to be catagorized as something other than 'hardware', becase it has such a professional finish. Again, if it was machined (which I suspect it is) then it would be catagorized as such and not as 'hardware'.

don said:

I put a little thought into it and came up with a pretty simple way to clarify what sort of sabers there are:
Lightsaber Categories:

1. Replica – accurate reproduction of an established lightsaber design
1.1. Professional – complete replica made for commercial sale
1.1.1. Licensed – official prop replicas
1.1.2. Unlicensed – independently crafted replicas
1.2. Fan made – accurate replica built by a fan
1.2.1. As built – assembled from found parts identical to original
1.2.2. Hardware – recreated with found parts not used on the original
1.2.3. Cast – pulled from an accurate full saber mold
1.2.4. Machined – machined to exact specs of original
1.2.5. Kit – assembled from commercially made parts
1.2.6. Hybrid – any combination of the previous subcategories
1.3. Modified Professional – a commercial prop altered for higher accuracy
2. Custom – a new design not featured in the official Star Wars universe
2.1. Professional – commercially finished props
2.1.1. Stock – mass produced custom design
2.1.2. Personalized – unique design finished by a professional
2.1.2.1. Modified Stock – alteration of a mass produced design
2.1.2.2. Original design – completely original design
2.2. Fan Made – complete prop built by a fan
2.2.1. Hardware – assembled from found parts
2.2.1.1. Basic – simple design, most part origins are obvious
2.2.1.2. Advanced – constructed so that few or no part origins are clear
2.2.2. Machined – created through lathing or milling solid material
2.2.2.1. Basic – simple design, few changes made to material shape
2.2.2.2. Advanced – very detailed features, possibly multiple materials used
2.2.3. Kit – constructed from various commercially available parts
2.2.4. Hybrid – any combination of the previous subcategories

© Don Solo



Of course, that doesn't go into the types of blades you can use

That's a pretty perfect way of covering all eventualities

don said:

wow, this is quite the can of worms that he opened...

Some responces have made me feel it's not worth discussing it any further, as there seems to be such strong opposition to expanding the classifications... It does makes me wonder why people might be so opposed to something that would only simplify things, but I'll keep those thoughts to myself as it wasn't my intention to cause such discord, nor is it my intention to offend people.

[Olos Nay]

tanzanlinnear said:

Some responces have made me feel it's not worth discussing it any further, as there seems to be such strong opposition to expanding the classifications... It does makes me wonder why people might be so opposed to something that would only simplify things, but I'll keep those thoughts to myself as it wasn't my intention to cause such discord, nor is it my intention to offend people.

There are no opposition, simply everyone seams to feel its useless.
For everyone, the lightsaber is a prop. Do it like you want and make it the way you want, as long as the prop is OK for you, its great. There is a need for a lightsaber for the costume approval on TJA... there is also a need for boots, belt, etc.

do we go and classify belts as being better or worse then the neighbor's one, and the boot being of lesser look.

Its pointless for most people to classify their saber. Really, my lightsaber is what it is: MY saber. Its made of hardware and found parts so it is a "hardware" saber. I made it look good, some don't bother. Their loss (or win since they like it) but I don't even see why people bother classifying what is only a hobby and who would say what saber is better then the other on the final look...

Really, how would you evaluate a category, and who would say when the alterations are suffisent to "gain" the "superior" appelation?

[jedi12]

Right Olos I agree. Another catagory is a waste of time. a saber is a saber it's that simple "hardware" or othrerwise it is a must for a complete costume and that is all we need. I think this thread has gone far enough everyone has voiced an opinion and I think we need to cut this thread loose and let it die.