The Jedi trials

[kivaanzion]

Can anyone describe what they are?

Since I've only watched the films, they are a mystery to me. So far defeating a Sith Lord is the only way I know of to be promoted from Padawan to Knight.

PS- my apologies if I've put this in the wrong forum.

Kevin

[Solinbeb Newau]

Jedi trials typically depend on the jedi and their master's training.

Most are forboding of what the student's future might be as far as stories go.

Luke's was the confrontation in the Cave

Anakin's was his vision in the second series of the Clone Wars cartoon (as well as the one in the book).

Obi-Wan never faced an actual trial, so the council accepted his combat against Maul as his trial.

[Eril Nadon]

Yeah, not much is said of anything truly official. I think it is mostly based off of dramatic experiences that show that the Jedi is ready.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

They're pretty vague about the Jedi Trials. It seems to be some individualized test that a student must pass to become a Jedi. It could be anything from a mind game to life-and-death combat. Obi-Wan became a Jedi because the council couldn't come up with anything more trying than killing a Sith. Though I do wonder if they did the de-braiding ceremony with him like they did with Anakin in the cartoon.

I think that Luke's trial was his final confrontation with his father and that the tree was just the warm up. Yoda said that was the last thing he needed to do before he would be a Jedi.

[kivaanzion]

I think that Luke's trial was his final confrontation with his father and that the tree was just the warm up.

Let's explore this:

I agree that Luke's final trial was confronting Vader- however did passing this trial mean defeating Vader, or successfully bringing Vader back to the Light Side of the Force?

In the book "Hero with 1000 Faces" the final test for the hero (actually "potential hero"- as he/she hasn't reached hero status yet) is usually based on the hero's worst trait or flaw. The hero passes the final test when they overcome their flaw.

So what is Luke's fatal flaw? His impatience? His anger? Fear? (I believe he failed the cave test because he was afraid). Or is it underestimating the Emperor's power?

Discuss?

[modeleers]

Let's!

Luke's trial is what's referred to as the Reluctant hero myth.

Recall the broken Vader mask in the Cave. And behind the mask, who's face was revealed?
His Failure was also his Success. He identified his own demon.
Luke's Trial, was to face Himself. He started very late, and must Unlearn Everything, an Unusual task for a Jedi.

How does one defeat himself and Survive, ...The Mirror, Cracked!

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Ki said:

So what is Luke's fatal flaw? His impatience? His anger? Fear? (I believe he failed the cave test because he was afraid). Or is it underestimating the Emperor's power?
Discuss?

It's tough to figure out what Luke's "fatal flaw" is. He's such an average guy-in-the-galaxy in terms of how his life had been going before Obi-Wan dumped a load of Destiny on him. Basically he has only the usual flaws that everyone else does. Sure he wanted to get off Tatooine and live the life of adventure, but so did Biggs. Luke's ambitions aren't all that out-sized for him, not like his father's.

But when Luke fought faux Darth Vader in the tree, he didn't KNOW he was related to Darth Vader. The premonition he had in the tree must have been what convinced Luke that Vader was telling him the truth on Bespin. Sure he was hoping he had it wrong when he asked Yoda to confirm it, but his feelings already told him it was true. Interesting that Luke also has nowhere near his father's confidence in his abilities or intuition. When he says, "So, I really am a Jedi." on Dagobah, he pretty much admits that he's been faking it in the first part of ROTJ.

But Luke really LEARNED something from Bespin. He was different after that. One of Anakin's worst (and most annoying) problems is that he doesn't move on from his mother's death; he blamed it on Obi-Wan. There was no maturity in his response to that at all. But was Shmi's death any more taumatic for Anakin than Owen and Berus' for Luke? I don't think so.

BTW, when Yoda said that Luke didn't need any weapons in the tree, that seems like a foreshadowing of the fact that it wasn't a weapon that would defeat the emperor. Luke didn't get it on Degobah, but he had it fight over Endor.

Here's a thought....suppose Luke had decided to go to the Academy and not let Owen talk him into staying. Would Obi-Wan have followed him? I think so. But Luke stayed put to help out Owen and Beru. Even though Yoda accuses him of never having his mind on what he was doing, Luke had already made some fairly mature decisions with his life, moreso than his father ever did at the same age. OTOH, it would have been better for Owen if he'd let him go before Luke's Destiny came crashing down on them.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

This sounds very interesting. :-)

I think Luke's 'flaw' is a mixture of fear and doubt.

Here's why I think so. He wants toleave the moisture farm but ina way is afraid t do so because it'd force him to go out alone. He instinctivly knew his potential but was afriad to tap onto it, cuz he had no way of knowing the outcome. His doubting of himself held him back.

The doubt comes into play. Fear and doubt seem to 'feed' off each other, the end result can be potentially paralyzing and blinding.
He wanted adventure but only had a somewhat romantisized view of it. Once he got a dose of just how dangerous 'adevnture' was, he had to choose. Back down orgrow up and move forward. I guess reality didn't agree with him too well. :-)

[kivaanzion]

Excellent responses all! I love this kind of stuff! ;D

The reluctant hero describes Luke perfectly!

In the hero's journey there is a "call to adventure"- to cross the threshold from the known world to the unknown.

Luke wants to adventure out into the unknown (to leave the farm and join the academy) but he is held back by his uncle (at first I thought this might be from loyalty- but I think it is more so from fear of the unknown, and fear of the repercussions of defying his uncle- remember the "boy am I going to get it" line).

In the hero's journey Owen is known as the "threshold guardian" holding Luke back. As in the case of most parents, Owen believes he is doing this for Luke's own good. But Luke is predestine to be more than just a farmer.

However Luke has refused the call to adventure because of his uncle. The reluctant hero can have some help to accept the call- in this case it is Obi Wan urging Luke to join the fight against the Empire. Still Luke refuses the call.

Luke is finally "forced" to accept the call to adventure. His guardians are killed, and Luke admits there is no reason to stay on Tatooine. He begins his hero's journey.

Doubting his own abilities is definitely one of Luke's largest flaws. During the Death Star trench run, Obi Wan urges Luke to use the Force, but moreso he is saying believe in yourself and your abilities.

I would throw in stubborness: Before his cave test Yoda tells Luke he will not need his weapons- and Luke gives Yoda an "I don't think so" look. Again this ties in with Luke doubting himself. His ability to conquer whatever faces him in the cave, without his "known world" weapons. He has not yet embraced his natural abilities (using the Force).

I don't know if Luke was admitting he was faking being a Jedi at the beginning of ROTJ, but it seems to fit. Luke was pretty astonished to hear Yoda say he required no more training.

Luke is also very shortsighted. He acts on impulse.
He believed he was capable of defeating Vader at Bespin- he wasn't.
He believed that Vader would not turn Luke over to the Emperor and that by simply urging him, Vader would convert back to the Light Side. Wrong again.
He completely underestimated the Emperor's power. He declares himself a Jedi, basically saying to the Emperor "what are you going to do about it?"- The Emperor stated it perfectly by saying "you have paid the price for your lack of vision".

However Luke's destiny was not to destroy the Emperor. Luke's destiny was to successfully bring his father back to the Light Side of the Force. By placing himself in peril (albeit unintentionally) Luke succeeds in convincing Vader to break the Emperor's enslavement of him. This in turn fulfills Anakin's destiny.

Whew! I believe that is the most thinking I've done on the subject!

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

What I think Luke really had going for him is that he's a more balanced mix of ability and learning than his father was. His lack of confidence is actually what saves him, makes him slow down long enough to see what he's doing. When he's got Vader on the ropes, chopped off his hand and the Emperor is egging him on, Luke's natural impulse was to stop and question what he was doing. Anakin just never had that.

That moment of questioning what he was doing was when Luke passed his trials. He'd decided beforehand that his mission was to retrieve Anakin Skywalker and he reasserted that goal. What I like best about Luke's trial is that his goal was NOT to kill something to defeat it; it was to bring something back to life, Anakin. It was the exact opposite of Obi-Wan's trial with Maul.

[Pau - Sol - Eittoh]

Yoda told Luke one thing remains you must confront Vader .Luke Tells Sprit Obi - Wan I can not kill my father , Kenobi says Then the Emperior has already won . In Kenobi's eyes I think Luke's flaw was that he could not kill his father .But Anakin and vader are 2 diffirent people Luke killed Vader ,and the goodness in Anakin killed the emperior. Luke didn't want to kill him father he had to save him he acomplished that task .

[modeleers]

I like this exchange as well. However, I am given pause by the statements regarding Luke's flaws as if they were a hinderance, and some of the other terms used in this discussion.

Flaws...
can be a good thing, in Diamonds and Emeralds there are identifying features, that give gems their character. Luke was a 'Diamond in the rough'. Most Jedi are always Jedi, they just need a cut and polishing to enhance what is Inside to begin with.
Adventures & Venturing (often misused) ...On the race to the South Pole,
Capt. Amundsen 'Ventured' effortlessly South, all according to arctic experience and careful planning. When he returned, he said something to the effect of, "Nice Trip".
Capt. Scott had an 'Adventure'! On his outing, everything that could go wrong did. His entire party died.
Some Adventures have a positive outcome though, through many obstacles.

Luke was a farm boy who typically yearned for other things, ANYTHING, he was bored!
His flaws, nothing abnormal at all, just a young man who was going to figure things out, and Hey, it might just kill him in the process. Death was nothing new on Tatooine. Luke was his own threshold keeper, a farmboy can run off anytime they choose. Uncle Ben only watched the threshold and held a key or two. Guilt and the Secret.

Light side/Dark side: Luke was his Father's son, they were cut from the Same cloth.
Both men had equal portions of Light/Dark, as do any who wander the path dictated by the Force. One must choose, and having chosen, Act.

Regarding Jedi Trials... The Jedi council knit picked and prejudged both, regarding Anakin & Luke, as most governing bodies are prone to do. Both started their training late, and both had much to Un-Learn. They were particularly cautious when it came to Luke, can you blame them, Like Father Like Son...

[kivaanzion]

Please understand that in no way do I think of Luke as a tragic character (who ultimately is a failure)- We are exploring what Luke's final test might be based on.

Main characters in stories always have flaws- otherwise they would be one dimensional and boring.

The heros' journeys of both Anakin and Luke are very intertwined. Moreso than I ever thought of before starting this thread.

The most basic hero's journey goes something ilke this:

It is a circular pattern beginning at the top of the circle. It starts with the call to adventure, and acceptance of the call.

Next is the crossing of the threshold into the unknown (with the circle split horizontally along the middle). There are a series of tests along the way which the student might or might not receive help.

At the bottom of the circle is the student's final test. It is done alone, and is usually based on the students worst fear- which they must overcome.

When the student succeeds there is a metaphorical "death and rebirth". The student "dies" and is "reborn" as the hero.

The quest then takes the path back upward along the circle to the known world. The hero must cross the threshold again (although it will be much easier this time around) and returns to his/her beginning point. After which they usually take on the role of the teacher.

Now two things can happen if the student fails his final test:

1- the student dies. End of story. Not very pleasent.

2- the student can be "rescued". Think of Leia and Chewie rescuing Luke at Bespin.

Now getting back to Luke and Anakin- This appears to me to be a case of dual journeys.

Anakin is a failed hero- he has failed his trial as a Jedi and has embraced the Dark Side. After many years his son "rescues" him from the Dark Side by convincing him to destroy the Emperor.

Luke failed by underestimating the Emperor's power and was near death, until he was rescued by Anakin. If it were not for each other- they would both be tragic characters. Luke would have been killed had he faced the Emperor alone, and Anakin would have continued his life as Vader under the Emperor's control, if it were not for Luke's intervention.

I think Luke's worst fear is that Anakin is truly gone; that his father is completely evil and is beyond redemption. When Luke surrenders himself to Vader in ROTJ, and states that his father is truly dead, he pretty much gives up after that. He accepts that he has failed to redeem his father, and waits for death aboard the Death Star (going by his line to the Emperor "soon I'll be dead, and you with me").

As for death and rebirth- In the case of Anakin, Anakin "died" when he became Darth Vader. He is reborn as Anakin once again at the end of ROTJ after passing his final test (and returning in spirit after merging with the Force). With Luke, when the Death Star explodes, his comrades (on the Endor moon) believe he might be dead- but he returns reborn as a full Jedi Knight.

[modeleers]

Your Star shines very Bright (you one smart Cookie) and your definitions are Textbook 'spot on' but...
Death & Rebirth are connected to Transformation/Change Myths, and according to Campbell (and Star Wars), not as Cut & Dry as you interpret.
In Star Wars, Regarding Anikin, everyone LIED to Luke when they made claims and parallels regarding Anikin's "Death". (I note your quote marks "died")

I'm a profession Screenwriter, these days, and I get paid to twist stories like a pretzel, so I am very familiar with & use formulaic story telling (and Classic Myths) in my work. I am not sure what you are saying to me or referring to in your last post.

I was trying to cover the over all posts in regard to what everyone was saying, not just you. I think you misread me, It happens, too often, in on-line discussions. No harm/No foul.

But I think we both have wondered way off the Jedi-Trial Origin, so I will leave You to carry on. This was Most Fun, Forcefully yours- M/Modeleer

[kivaanzion]

Hi Modeleers,

The first part of my last post (where I said that main characters need flaws) was a response regarding what you said about flaws not being a hinderence. I thought that I might have been sounding negative about Luke (in my previous posts), and just wanted to clear that up.

Everything else (where I try to describe how Luke and Anakin's journeys are connected) was me mostly thinking out loud and trying to map it out in classic myth pattern.

And this was fun indeed. ;D

So if we had to come up with our version of what The Jedi Trials might be...

It would be a test both physical and pyschological,
individually designed to challenge the Padawan to overcome their worst fear.

Yes?