Quintessential Jedi?

[J'st-Peat]

Well I think your logic is really dead on. But what seperates Obi Wan from Ep III and Ep VI other than time?

[Shatir Lavan]

ROTS is when Obi-Wan's failure really fleshes itself out, that being Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. In ANH he is much wiser because he has meditated long and hard on his mistakes, and has thought through countless times the scenarios that took place that pushed Anakin over the edge. We have all experienced a time when we say something in a conversation where we don't think hard enough about our wording, and the other person takes it the wrong way, causing them to be upset with you. Then later we look back on that situation and think up a hundred different ways we could have worded that statement, but didn't. Obi-Wan's growth over that 20 years is that type of hindsight.

[Kyrel-Dak]

Don't be too hard on Obi Wans shortcomings.......remember that a Sith Lord had his sites on Anakin from when he was discovered. The same Sith Lord that had the entire Jedi Council fooled and blinded. I believe we will see that the Sith treachery will unfold in the upcoming film to reveal that he convices Anakin that the Jedi are responsible for Padme's death causing Anakin to turn on them while feeling the pain and loss. Remember the same happened to Aurra Sing.......she was convinced by the space pirates that the Dark Woman sold her to them and after training as an assassin she too turned on the Jedi.
This is why we must always keep an open mind to uncover who the real enemies are around us and be forgiving to our friends for their shortcomings. We can however be critical of our friends shortcomings and find ways to help them overcome them, as long as we accept the same in return and work hard to overcome our own. In this way we rely on each other and the Order as a whole to become better in all our skills.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

Ahh, A really good discusion. :-D
Mooglar put into words what I'd thought all along. :-) Major coolness.

The jedi forgot what balance was. They also forgot that to follow the will fo the force is their job so to speak, even if the will isn't what mankind thinks is right.

[J'st-Peat]

I thought this might help the converstation I saw it and it peeked some interest. What do you think?
Is Qui-Gon reckless?

Perhaps. The official Star Wars website says of Qui-Gon, "his focus is in the moment, and he follows his instincts even when others may consider them reckless." "I shall do what I must," he says, but his nature as a compassionate man prevents him from wantonly allowing harm to come to anyone who might be in the way. He does place Anakin at risk, but he does not do so without consulting Shmi and trusting Anakin to bring about a good result. He very nearly does not agree to Anakin's plan, when Shmi protests "I die every time Watto makes you do it," but in the end, after discussion, he relents, and his instincts about Anakin’s abilities turn out to be right.

Of course, if we take "reckless" to mean a bit unorthodox, trusting in faith to bring about things that seem impossible to obtain, then sure, Qui-Gon is reckless - and good thing, too.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

I'm beginning to think that you can't pick just one "Quintessential Jedi" to represent the Jedi best. It depends on the times; I'm sure Old Republic standard is different from New Republic. And the situation; pre-Clone Wars Jedi average is likely not the same as during the Wars. I like the comparrison between Yoda and Qui-Gon, different strengths and weaknesses for different Jedi for different times.

[Jedimom/Cor-Al Gelkar]

Qui-Gon. Definitely Qui-Gon

[mooglar (Malim Vincible)]

Here are my thoughts on Obi-Wan. At the end of Episode I, he places his loyalty to Qui-Gon over the judgment of the Council and his own judgment (about whether Anakin is dangerous or not). He starts his career as full-fledged Jedi Knight defying the Council as his Master had done.

But, by Episode II, we see that Obi-Wan has gone the other way. Perhaps because he thinks Qui-Gon's defiance kept him from achieving his potential (per Obi-Wan's line in Episode I to Qui-Gon, "You'd be on the Council right now...") Or, perhaps, Anakin's defiance forced Obi-Wan into the conservative, by-the-book role. Either way, he seems to have become unwilling to take initiative, not just to the extreme Anakin would, but where Qui-Gon would have.

(I got this impression from a number of things in Episode II: his argument with Anakin about "not exceeding our mandate," his inability to see past his belief in the infallibility of the Jedi Order -- the obvious fact that someone erased Kamino from the database, and how he constantly seems to be calling Coruscant for instructions and lets Yoda chide his judgment rather than trusting his own judgment and proceeding as Qui-Gon would have done. At the end of Episode II, he does finally take the initiative to go after Dooku, but this is after Dooku has shaken him by telling him a Sith is controlling the Senate and after the disaster in the arena, seeing so many of his comrades fallen so quickly, both messing up his stable view of the universe).

Also, by Episode II, Obi-Wan and Anakin have developed a rather destructive relationship, far different than Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's. Obi-Wan is overly critical of Anakin, and shows it in very unhelpful ways, like when he crosses his arms like a petulant child during the car chase and complains, "Well, you've lost him." Anakin, despite his rashness, obviously cares a great deal about gaining Obi-Wan's approval, and his constant apologizing is kind of like a whipped dog trying desperately to please his master.

But it's not just Obi-Wan's fault, from what we can see. Anakin is emotional, proud, short-tempered, and petulant himself. He acts out a lot in his attempts to prove himself to Obi-Wan, failing to realize that it isn't Anakin's abilities Obi-Wan doubts but his maturity. Anakin also knows he is better with the Force than Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan's over-criticality is, in part, an attempt to force some humility on Anakin, but Obi-Wan is so cutting that he ends up just humiliating Anakin instead, which, of course, makes Anakin angry, not humble.

Episode II Obi-Wan is not a very good teacher, especially not for Anakin. He doesn't have the knack that Qui-Gon did to gain his Padawan's trust and balance gentleness and kindness with appropriate constructive criticism. He has, in a sense, focused so much on controlling Anakin and his vast powers that he has completely failed to actually teach Anakin anything other than resentment.

But, on the other hand, teaching Anakin was an exceptionally difficult task. As others have noted, we can't blame Obi-Wan too much for his failure. Anakin was his first Padawan and he just wasn't up to a challenge of that magnitude his first time out.

Now, contrast this with Episode IV Obi-Wan and how he deals with Luke. His rash, critical personality is gone. He treats Luke, who is no more mature and certainly less skilled and able than Anakin in Episode II, as a real person, letting him make his own decisions, and leading him to the right path rather than ordering it. Episode II Obi-Wan failed to gain Anakin's trust in ten years, but Episode IV Obi-Wan gains Luke's trust in a day (yes, the death of Uncle Owen and Beru helped Luke decide to accompany Obi-Wan to Alderaan, but Obi-Wan could still have failed to earn the immense trust Luke gives him by the time Obi-Wan dies).

Look at the scene in the cantina when Obi-Wan saves Luke from the two criminals. He neither coddles Luke nor criticizes him. He helps Luke up, not asking if Luke is okay -- giving Luke, an adult, the freedom to ask for help if he needs it or to put the incident in the past if he wants -- and then goes right into talking about Chewbacca being first mate on a ship they might use. He treats Luke as someone who can take care of himself and make his own decisions, even though he is much more naive and less capable than Anakin in Episode II.

But what really makes Episode IV Obi-Wan a contender for quintessential Jedi is that everything he does is for someone else, including sacrificing himself to Vader's blade. There is no ego, no vanity, no pride in Obi-Wan at this point. Under the circumstances, Obi-Wan could have easily given in to fear, despair, anger, or hate. He could have (presumably) taken Luke somewhere and trained him relentlessly as nothing more than a weapon to defeat Vader and the Emperor. But he didn't. He let Luke grow up and choose to become a Jedi rather than forcing the choice upon him. He had immense patience and trust that somehow the Force would right things again.

I mean, according to the latest "Star Wars Insider," Obi-Wan was only 57 years old at the time of Episode IV. He wasn't that old. He wasn't so old that his only choice was to sacrifice himself to Vader. No. He sacrificed himself because it was the best thing for Luke! Think about that... Who would blame Obi-Wan for wanting to be around to see the battle won and to regain his stature, to see the Jedi Knights reborn, to retire in comfort after years of living like a hermit in the desert? Who would blame him for thinking that he was so important to the cause he couldn't be spared, or that Luke wouldn't amount to anything without him? (Yes, he knows Yoda is still alive, but he also knows that Luke doesn't know that... what if Luke chooses not to go to Dagobah after Obi-Wan's death?) He was once a great general of the Republic, a Jedi Master. Yet, after waiting all this time on Tatooine for Luke to be ready, he does not hesitate a moment to sacrifice himself, when anyone could be forgiven for wanting something back for all those lost years in that hermit's hut.

This isn't a guy at the end of his life who sacrifices it because it's almost over anyway. I'm sure that people in the Star Wars universe, especially Force-users, can expect to be active into their 80s, at least, and to live even longer. He could have expected to live to see the end of the conflict. But he puts Luke's good ahead of his own without ever grousing about how Luke "would be the death of" him, the way he did about Anakin.

Episode IV Obi-Wan, in my opinion, isn't just a much kinder, gentler, wiser Obi-Wan, but he is a much nobler Obi-Wan, someone who has kept the flame alive during years of darkness and not lost his faith that goodness will win out over evil and that he remain true to the spirit -- not the code -- of the Jedi in the hopes that one day that spirit can flourish again.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

One thing about Jedi correcting their underlings.....they ALL do it. It just seems to be a heirarchy thing with them. From Yoda down to Qui-Gon, it's just a Jedi habit. Qui-Gon corrected Obi-Wan in the first scene of TPM. And he kept doing it, too. Obi-Wan was just a much, much better padawan than Anakin was, at least as far a learning was concerned. Anakin is just so naturally talented that he doesn't think anyone can teach him anything. Obi-Wan knew better at a much younger age. Anakin didn't figure out how to learn from another until he stopped the Emperor from killing his son.

[J'st-Peat]

Well I read in Ep 1 Qui_Gon was supposed to be like 60 years old. (He looked d**n good for 60!) I think its Obi-wans Youth that is his downfall. He his too close to Anakin in age. Maybe when he gets older, its more competative then anything else, and thats why he is the way he is with Anakin.

Lets remember its not a frat, The Jedi arent Brothers berating pledges.

[Jauhzmynn Enz]

That's true. These guys go through so much as knights. The younger ones might not belive all the mess the older Jedi go through until they experience it.