Quintessential Jedi?

[J'st-Peat]

Who do you think the paradime of the jedi is? I've been thinking alot about this lately. The conclusion I've come to is that its Qui-Gon.

You look at Obi Wan. The reason Anakin is so unruley is because of his training from Obi-wan. When you think of it Obi is made a jedi knight then right away he is given a padawan. Its like saying hi i just got my drivers license I am going to teach drivers ed. Also he is not really an acceptional jedi, his jedi powers and skills seem average. Also the way he talks to Anakin, very condesending, when Anakin says he's jealous it makes you think he not all wrong.

Mace Windu or as I like to call him the Jedi Butt Whupper. OK so he can kick some serious tail, but he is too aligned with Yoda. Almost as though he is Yoda's yes man. If Yoda stepped down from the council nothing would change. He doesnt think for himself enough, or at least thats what it seems.

Qui-Gon, is free thinking and over all a skilled jedi. His undoing is his passions, but that is also his saving grace. Had he trained Anakin would he have turned to the dark side? I think not. Anakin is also a jedi of passion? If Qui-Gon had taught him perhaps he could have tamed them...

just a thought

[Kyrel-Dak]

I am with you on that. Qui-Gon is what we think of, perhaps aspire to be when we think of a Jedi.

He believed he had encountered a Sith Lord and immediately everyone disagreed with him. Ki Adi rolled his eyes in a very disrespectful way while Yoda and Mace looked at each other like "oh brother, Qui-Gon has flipped his lid". Qui-Gon was right about the Sith, right about Anakin being the prophecy child. What brings about the fall of the Jedi is that they were in a decline not really seeing reality of the situations around them.

Yoda and Mace do not seem to be the exceptionaly strong leader types we would expect from the two top Council members. As Braveheart would say "People don't follow titles, they follow courage". In order to lead such an exceptional group of individuals like Jedi one must be strong, confident and decisive.

[Shatir Lavan]

I disagree with that statement about Mace and Yoda not being leader types. I think they are the top Jedi when it comes to those who follow the rules. Qui-Gon is like the top rebellious Jedi. If I can liken it to Robin Hood, Qui-Gon is Robin, Palpatine is Prince John, Darth Maul (then later Tyrannus, Vader) are the Sheriff of Nottingham, and Yoda/Mace are King Richard. (I'm speaking in terms of character hierarchy/attributes, not plot). Yoda and Mace go by the book, while QG goes by instinct.

[J'st-Peat]

Well isnt a large part of the force instinct? I think that master Yoda, and Mace are so caught up in going by the book that they loose focus with the force. Hence allowing Palpatine to gain control in the senate.

If you draw the parallel to King Richard, he also let his house out of control and evil took over (Prince John).

[Kyrel-Dak]

There are those who are General type leaders and there are those who are politicians. Yoda and Mace are more the politician types, although they can fight that doesn't make them Generals. If they had been the more military type Generals then perhaps not as many Jedi would have been killed during the Clone Wars and maybe they would have uncovered Palpatine much sooner and dealt with him. One fact that cannot be ignored is that the Jedi LOOSE. They barely escape (the ones who are left) and have to hide. One Sith Lord who is a brilliant strategist topples the entire Jedi order along with all other good people of the day who were trying to maintain justice.

You may admire many qualities that Mace and Yoda posses but brilliant strategists they are not........

[Shatir Lavan]

I suppose you've got me there. They didn't see what moves their enemy was making. They were ignorant of the dark side until it was too late. They were too focused on their own personal victories in learning about the Force that they could not stop the Sith. However, in their concentration, they acquired geat knowledge.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Yoda!

He's the model. Wise and tough in one package. He's the deceptively mild-mannered looking martial arts teacher who will almost take your head off the first time you spar with him. And most importantly, he's the one who saw that the Clone Wars were an absolutely BAD thing coming, but there was no way to stop it.

Qui-Gon was right about Anakin being the chosen one. But he was wrong about training him. Yoda saw that the kid was the chosen one, too, but he also saw that he was trouble. Qui-Gon, though an up-standing Jedi to be sure, never had a clue. He was too much in the now of the moment.

And NOBODY could figure out what was up with the dark side; not Qui-Gon, not Obi-Wan, not Mace, or the rest of the council.

After Yoda, I'd rank Luke next. Sure he's not an Old Republic Jedi and by default, he's the model for a New Republic Jedi because he's the only one we see in the movies, but he was an adult when Obi-Wan picked him up, much moreso than when his father was at his age. Yeah, Luke was a bit whiny, but when it came to making big decisions, he always thought of others before acting; it wasn't always the wisest choice, but he did. AND even though Yoda and Obi-Wan warned him that Vader was hopeless, that kid was RIGHT that there was a little Anakin still in that black suit. That insight of Luke's is always underrated IMHO.

I have a strong feeling that Yoda was right all along and that Anakin would have been much more like Luke and much mor of an instrument for good, had he grown up on Tatooine.

[J'st-Peat]

OK Yoda is a great Jedi, but he is like the American Legal system, he is caught up in rules and proceedure. That is his major fault. Sure he can open the can of Wupp-IT on Dooku, and he is powerful. But because he does everything by the book he falls short. If he was so concerned about Anakin why didnt he train him?

Qui-Gon was the only one who could have done it. Or Kit Fisto...I have no clue about Kit Fisto...he just looks like the regay jedi..."Hooray for Jabra Jucie."

[Leda EmBorr]

MediaGuyPJ said:

Qui-Gon, is free thinking and over all a skilled jedi. His undoing is his passions, but that is also his saving grace. Had he trained Anakin would he have turned to the dark side? I think not. Anakin is also a jedi of passion? If Qui-Gon had taught him perhaps he could have tamed them...

Definitely it would be Qui-Gon. The others are influenced by things outside of themselves... rules, teachings, loyalties... but Qui-Gon is an independent thinker. He seemes to make choices based upon his own insight and observations.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

MediaGuyPJ said:

OK Yoda is a great Jedi, but he is like the American Legal system, he is caught up in rules and proceedure. That is his major fault. Sure he can open the can of Wupp-IT on Dooku, and he is powerful. But because he does everything by the book he falls short. If he was so concerned about Anakin why didnt he train him?

Yoda didn't train Anakin because HIS instincts told him not to. Yeah, he sticks to the rules, but that was one of the things that DEFINED the Old Republic Jedi. That may be the flaw that brought them down in the end, but for good or ill, it was a fundamental Jedi characteristic.

They didn't define themselves as individuals, they looked at themselves as ego-less instruments to the Force. Even Qui-Gon was motivated by what he thought was the will of the Force. Qui-Gon was likeable, but by Old Republic standards, he was a renegade and not an exemplary Jedi.

To me, one of Yoda's most outstanding features was that he was a survivor. He went from the pinnacle of power to waiting the bad times out in a slimy mudhole on Dagobah and still kept his sense of humor. That is magnificent versatility in the face of adversity. Patience, strength and that cool sense of wonder in his voice when he taught Luke about the Force. THAT'S a Jedi.

[J'st-Peat]

First off all Ani I love your name that is way cool lol.

On the whole Yoda thing. Yoda is powerful and wise. This is true however I think the real essence of a jedi is still Qui-Gon. Thats why he is presented in TPM the way he is, so you know what the a real jedi is or should be.

I think that yoda is just as much a jedi, but looses out because of his lack of vision. The only reason Luke is trained by Yoda, is because he is the last jedi. Lets face he doesnt train luke so well.

What are Luke's real jedi abilties at the end of ROFTJ?

Not soo hot, right?

[Shatir Lavan]

Yoda only teaches Luke what he needs to know to defeat Vader. There are so many things that he had taught padawans in the Old Republic that took a decade or 2 to learn. Luke goes from FS to master in what? 4 years? Obi-Wan and Yoda gave Luke the basics, and the necessary advanced stuff. That is all. They left it up to him to learn everything else either on his own, or with their guidance through the Force. Read the NJO series. By then Luke is powerful, and can battle meditate, and can distort space-time to make YV voids turn back on their own sources. Luke is strong, he just had to learn stuff for himself.

[Calaveylon Angavel]

There's an active website devoted to Qui-Gon Jinn that might be helpful to this discussion.
www.gui-gonline.org

[J'st-Peat]

It didnt come up. What a bummer. Maybe theres a problem with the link.

[mooglar (Malim Vincible)]

My question would be, "The quintessential Jedi by what standard?" A lot of this discussion is actually about that question. Whether Qui-Gon or Yoda is the quintessential Jedi is a matter of whether you think the quintessential Jedi should follow "the will of the Force" as he or she sees it, or should follow the structures and traditions of the Jedi Order that have, over time, proven to help the Order as a whole follow the will of the Force.

I imagine that the Jedi Order has had its share of renegades before Qui-Gon. But renegades tend to be wrong as often as right, and so the Jedi Code and the Jedi Council were developed, in part, in order to reign in renegades on the idea that the judgment of several users of the Force will, in general, be better than one. But, in Qui-Gon's case, it just happens that he was right most of the time.

So, to me, the failure was two-fold. Qui-Gon failed because, by not picking his battles wisely, he had gotten a reputation as being difficult, and therefore could not convince the Council he was right when it counted. On the other hand, Yoda and the Council failed because they allowed their feelings about Qui-Gon's "defiance" cloud their ability to see that Qui-Gon was right.

The two-fold failure is evident in how the Jedi dealt with Anakin. Qui-Gon was right that Anakin was the chosen one, but wrong about Anakin not being dangerous. The Council was wrong about Anakin's importance but right that he was dangerous and that his training was going to be perilous.

I agree with others on this thread that it is very possible that Qui-Gon could have trained Anakin successfully. He was right about that. But he was wrong to think that Obi-Wan could do the same, and wrong to think that Anakin's promise was so great that the dangers should be ignored. The truth was that Anakin should have been trained only by Qui-Gon, as he was the one who the will of the Force led to Anakin. But Qui-Gon made the mistake of thinking that Anakin had to be trained no matter what, and the Council made the mistake of thinking Anakin shouldn't be trained no matter what. The truth, as usual, lay in the middle.

Both Yoda and Qui-Gon are good Jedi, but they are good for different times and places. Yoda helped maintain the stability of the Order for 800 years. But when the darkness began to encroach he was completely unable to adapt and defeat it. Qui-Gon would have been a disruptive influence through most of the history of the Order, during times of stability, but was the perfect Jedi for a time when the Sith are on the rise.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Also, I think that Obi-Wan from Episode IV has to be on any list of quintessential Jedi.