Anakin or Luke

[tanzanlinnear]

belden said:

i believe luke is the better jedi- because of what he does with his powers as opposed to anakin. anakin only wants to focus on the power while luke wants to pass on what he has learned instead of focusing on himself. anakin being a kinght could have taken a padawan at any time but he did not. luke (truce of bakura) found someone who was strong in the force and tried to help him and tried to save him so he may learn the true nature of the force (from my point of view).

In all fairness to Anakin, he was made a knight in the middle of a war, and then instantly shipped out to the Outer Rim seiges with Obi-Wan, it wasn't as if he was at the Jedi Temple with the younglings to be in the situation to take a padawan.
My beef with Luke (other then the incestuous tendencies) is that his 'mastery' of the Force only comes in the EU (which I know Lucas has to approve to a certain degree) but it never happened in the movies, which to be honest, are the only True Star Wars as they're the only ones done by Lucas.
I would agree that Anakin does tend to focus more on aquiring power, but, when you look at the reasons he wants to aquire more power, it becomes less of a lust for power through sheer greed. Because of his failure to prevent his mother's death (afterall, she was still (barely) alive when he found her, he felt he should have been able to prevent her from dying even then) and so he can prevent those he loves from dying in the future. As I was discussing above with Master Zion, Anakin's tragic flaw is definitely his temper, but, another is that he doesn't like change, and wants things to stay as they are (or as he wants them to be)

[Cara Drume]

Mm, very good point, Tanzaan.

Yes, inside Anakin was a good person with good intentions...
But as GL himself said...
'Anakin's problem in this is that he has a hard time letting go of things. He wants to change people's fates so that they're the way he wants them to be. But that greed goes from trying to save the one you love, to realizing you can control the universe.'

I think that, due to circumstances beyond Luke's or Anakin's control, Luke just grew up to be a better Jedi. Wasn't anyone's fauklt; just the 'will of the Force', I guess.
So I'll go with Luke.

[tanzanlinnear]

That's exactly my point. What began with good intentions just got out of control. In the Clone Wars cartoon, just before he is made a Knight, Anakin turned on Obi-Wan (who had just vouched for him to become a Knight) and said that he was no Qui-Gon. At the time, I thought it was a pretty low blow, but looking back (and from Obi-Wan's admission on Mustafar) he did fail him as a Master, and I think had Qui-Gon lived, he would have been able to train Anakin properly.
Again, I don't like the fact that Luke grew to be a Jedi Master in the EU rather than on film, because Lucas could always decide to film something different that contradicts the established EU (Boba Fett's back story, for example) As far as I see it, Luke was trained to use the Force and a lightsaber in order to defeat Darth Vader (and possibly Palpatine) but he never finished his training with Master Yoda, he just took it upon himself to call himself a Jedi (in Jabbas palace). When Palpatine used Force Lightning against Luke on the 2nd Death Star, he was completely helpless, yet the PT has established that not only can Force Lightning be deflected or absorbed through a lightsaber blade, but a trained adept can deflect and absorb the lightning with their bare hands. Master Yoda knew how much Palpatine used Force Lightning as a weapon, surely he could have trained Luke to be able to deflect it as well? I know that the Visual Dictionary points out that Vader could never cast or repel Force Lightning because both his hands were artificial, but Luke still had one organic hand that he could have used if he'd been fully trained.

[Cara Drume]

Oh, well. I guess it's just a result of making the movies 25 years apart.

[kivaanzion]

tanzanlinnear said:

As far as I see it, Luke was trained to use the Force and a lightsaber in order to defeat Darth Vader (and possibly Palpatine) but he never finished his training with Master Yoda, he just took it upon himself to call himself a Jedi (in Jabbas palace). When Palpatine used Force Lightning against Luke on the 2nd Death Star, he was completely helpless, yet the PT has established that not only can Force Lightning be deflected or absorbed through a lightsaber blade, but a trained adept can deflect and absorb the lightning with their bare hands. Master Yoda knew how much Palpatine used Force Lightning as a weapon, surely he could have trained Luke to be able to deflect it as well?

You kinda answered your own question there Master Tanzan-

Luke cut his training short. And really how long did he spend on Dagobah in the first place? There is speculation that it was maybe a month or so. Surely he could not have learned all that he truly needed to know in order to defeat the Emperor in such a short period (contrary to what Yoda tells him in ROTJ).

And while we're on the subject of Yoda telling Luke he required no more training- it could be that Yoda knew he was dying, and said that to boost Luke's confidence. If Yoda died first, Luke would probably have a mental breakdown thinking...
"How can defeat the Empire now?" "What powers do I still have to learn?" "I'd better stay on Dagobah- I really messed things up the last time I left here." "Or maybe I should go..." "No wait..."

In fact Yoda is the only Jedi we ever see deflecting Force lightning with their bare hands. Dooku did it- but at the time he was a Sith (we can't be sure if he learned that while he was a Jedi Master, or as a Sith apprentice). Yoda is the oldest Jedi we know of and it may have taken him decades to perfect the deflection technique. Even the great Yoda was knocked on his little green behind the first time Palpatine let him have it with the lightning (which Yoda tried to warn Luke about in ROTJ)- no wonder young Jedi Luke was helpless when Palpatine blasted him! Yoda's spirit was probably rolling over saying "I told you so."

Yes it was a bit arrogant of Luke to be calling himself a Jedi Knight in Jabba's palace- but the Jedi had been extinct for over 20 years- there wouldn't be any Jedi for Luke (or anyone else) to compare himself to. The only creature alive qualified to tell Luke otherwise (Yoda) told him that he was a Jedi once he confronted Vader. Certainly he was not near the level of Qui-Gon, Mace, or Obi-Wan, but how would Luke have known otherwise?

Just food for thought.

[tanzanlinnear]

kivaanzion said:

You kinda answered your own question there Master Tanzan-

Luke cut his training short. And really how long did he spend on Dagobah in the first place? There is speculation that it was maybe a month or so. Surely he could not have learned all that he truly needed to know in order to defeat the Emperor in such a short period (contrary to what Yoda tells him in ROTJ).

And while we're on the subject of Yoda telling Luke he required no more training- it could be that Yoda knew he was dying, and said that to boost Luke's confidence. If Yoda died first, Luke would probably have a mental breakdown thinking...
"How can defeat the Empire now?" "What powers do I still have to learn?" "I'd better stay on Dagobah- I really messed things up the last time I left here." "Or maybe I should go..." "No wait..."

In fact Yoda is the only Jedi we ever see deflecting Force lightning with their bare hands. Dooku did it- but at the time he was a Sith (we can't be sure if he learned that while he was a Jedi Master, or as a Sith apprentice). Yoda is the oldest Jedi we know of and it may have taken him decades to perfect the deflection technique. Even the great Yoda was knocked on his little green behind the first time Palpatine let him have it with the lightning (which Yoda tried to warn Luke about in ROTJ)- no wonder young Jedi Luke was helpless when Palpatine blasted him! Yoda's spirit was probably rolling over saying "I told you so."

Yes it was a bit arrogant of Luke to be calling himself a Jedi Knight in Jabba's palace- but the Jedi had been extinct for over 20 years- there wouldn't be any Jedi for Luke (or anyone else) to compare himself to. The only creature alive qualified to tell Luke otherwise (Yoda) told him that he was a Jedi once he confronted Vader. Certainly he was not near the level of Qui-Gon, Mace, or Obi-Wan, but how would Luke have known otherwise?

Just food for thought.

Those are indeed excellent points, Master Zion. I should have been clearer in my description of Luke's training, in that I think Master Yoda taught him the most practical Jedi skills that he would need to defeat Vader and Palpatine, so when he said he needed no more training, he might have meant that he had learned those skills adequately, and as you suggest, to boost his confidence in thinking that he was fully trained, rather than adequately trained for the task at hand.
I think the Force lightning deflection is something that any sufficiently trained Force User can perform, but I don't think it matters if the person is a Jedi or a Sith, as afterall, they are both manipulating the same energy, just with different intentions. If anything, I would suspect that Dooku learned how to deflect Force lightning while he was a Jedi Master, but only learned to cast it when he became a Sith Apprentice, as it is not an ability used by Jedi.

[Starkindler (The Naked Jedi)]

Anakin's quest for power was driven by his FEAR. Yes. he wanted to help people, to save people, but the issue of power was to be able to protect those he loved in order to protect himself from the emotional trauma of their injury or death. His Fear led to anger led to Hate led to Suffering just as Master Yoda predicted/told him when he was presented to the council at nine years old.

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

Luke absolutely. Aside from being cuter than Anakin, he was as serious and studious a Jedi as you could ever want. Even with a fraction of the training that his father got, Luke had ten times the commitment than his father ever had at the same age when Anakin was an insufferable, impatient hormone-bomb. And Luke had the additional advantage of not having burned down the Jedi Temple, killing mass quantities adults and and small children. I suppose in a perfect universe Luke was the padawan that Obi-Wan should have had, but it wasn't so.

[Andle Di-Ranos]

I would have to say anakin. In my opinion you could not concider luke a jedi in the actual movies(not counting novels and comic books). Besides in a way Anakin was more powerful at the end of episode III than he was as vader. Such as, he didn't have a cumbersome suit that crippled him against lukes fast moves and the fact that he lost most of his force ability when he became more machine than man. So I think that if he did not know he was lukes father and never got injured, luke would have never stood a chance especially with anakin getting stronger with the more anger he had.

[Starkindler (The Naked Jedi)]

just kicking the ball around some more on the Force Lightening issue......
An early draft:

Revenge of the Jedi
Revised Rough Draft by George Lucas
82 pages, 139 Scenes
June 12, 1981

has Luke Deflecting the force lightening with the aid of Yoda's Force Ghost. In this version of the script he did know how to do it but Palpy was a bit too strong for him yet. He weakens and begins to collapse and Vader still has to save him.

[Schph Gochi]

Anakin was a more "gifted" Jedi...and...I am sure better in many ways...
but to look at any Jedi as a whole...you need to look beyond the lightsabers and piloting...and to the "whole" Jedi...


But Luke was a "better" Jedi because he was able to make the right decisions, save galaxies instead of destroying them and make the all important decisions of light vs dark.....Luke was far superior as an "overall" Jedi...

[Jan-Qui Coran]

I prefer Luke over Anakin because of the Jedi that Luke becomes as he masters the force--I've read most of the EU books to. Luke had to learn how to be a Jedi the very hard way, self taught on his own after Yoda gave him a "crash course" in Jedi ideals.

[Qui-Kel Jinn]

The Way I look at it Luke Had to have the good genes to be as good as he was so I say Anakin plus he was the CHOSEN ONE

[jedi12]

I say luke because he took the jedi and the force further than any other jedi in the past

[Ani-Chay Pinn]

I go with Luke because he figured out how to defeat Palpatine -- though he didn't really consciously think it through, he just made it happen.