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Post by Starkindler (The Naked Jedi) on Aug 19, 2005 22:30:39 GMT -5
I was thinking about the mechanics of the Lightsaber as it exists in SW. Many people talk about it being a "Laser Sword" and put forth agruements for how it could or couldn't be done. I think this to be in error as there is no way to create a self containing laser beam that is also self limiting and self charging.
It seems to me that the only way to accomplish this would be if the blade were actually a magnetically charged and contained plasma stream. The anatomy of a saber includes both a magnetic coil (through which the energy passes) AND a magnetic ring near the end.
perhaps the blade is an extruded plasma contained in a magnetic field OR a magnetically charged plasma stream that self limits through magnetic field induction. The inner part of the blade could be charged one way and the outer part the other. Thus they would form a circut of sorts and be regulated through the blade adjustment knob and power flow knobs much like one can tune the flame of a welding torch that mixes acetylene and oxygen?
just an idle thought on a slow night at work...........
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Post by Seda Navilli on Aug 19, 2005 23:18:49 GMT -5
In the Star Wars universe a Lightsaber is in fact light - Heavily focused light energy. The power cell pushes a tremendous amount of power into the main crystal, which converts the raw energy into a beam of light, which is then focused by the second crystal to reach a point at the blades end, in much the same way a magnifying glass can pinpoint sunlight. The blade lenght adjustment knob moves the focusing crystal, and the blade power knob adjusts the output of the diatium power cell. This idea works if you consider the fact that the crystals do have to be very special and fantastical. That is why it could never be made in real life, and also why only Jedi build lightsabers in the SW universe - you need the force to properly calibrate the focusing crystal. If it were simply a plasma blade, then the advanced engineering of the SW universe would mean that anyone could make one, and both the movies and books show this to be untrue. Unfortunatley I doubt there is, and ever will be, a way to replicate a lightsaber
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Post by lazlototh on Aug 19, 2005 23:37:03 GMT -5
I was thinking about the mechanics of the Lightsaber as it exists in SW. Many people talk about it being a "Laser Sword" and put forth agruements for how it could or couldn't be done. I think this to be in error as there is no way to create a self containing laser beam that is also self limiting and self charging. It seems to me that the only way to accomplish this would be if the blade were actually a magnetically charged and contained plasma stream. The anatomy of a saber includes both a magnetic coil (through which the energy passes) AND a magnetic ring near the end. perhaps the blade is an extruded plasma contained in a magnetic field OR a magnetically charged plasma stream that self limits through magnetic field induction. The inner part of the blade could be charged one way and the outer part the other. Thus they would form a circut of sorts and be regulated through the blade adjustment knob and power flow knobs much like one can tune the flame of a welding torch that mixes acetylene and oxygen? just an idle thought on a slow night at work........... I was at the NASA site Institute for Advanced Concepts and reading one of their reports on the use of Plasma to make a Magnetic Field. Of course that's the opposite of what you said above. A magnetic field Can contain a plasma but it is utterly out of our capability to shape the magnetic field into a saber... But wouldn't it be cool if we could...
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Post by tanzanlinnear on Aug 20, 2005 9:38:41 GMT -5
I've always considered the blade of a saber to be a form of shaped forcefield technology. In Star Trek, forcefields are normally invisible (or can be slightly colored) and hum... They also make noise when something comes into contact with them, and on a high setting, can vaborize something coming into contact with it. They are linnear fields of gravitons (same things used in tractor beams and artificial gravity generators) so I've thought the blade of a saber could be a very tightly controlled form of that technology. Just my own opinion, of course:)
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Post by Jauhzmynn Enz on Aug 20, 2005 21:54:13 GMT -5
Aww man, now you've got me thinking.:-) That's not a good thing.. heheh Just kidding. Theconcept is amazing.The magnetic 'bottle' makes sense andcould possibly be the only thing that could contain any high enegry source. As for anyone being able to make a plasmatic weapon in the Star Wars universe, I don't think Mr. Joe Average could. Space faring society or not,handing plasma requires certain equipment. Now maybe all the parts around, possibly easily avaiable, but only a few would know how to put it together and make it work right. The crystles can be synthesized as per proof of The Sith sabres and Mace's. There's also the bit on proper construction being a pontentially volitile experiance. Next would come of how to use it saftly. That's is being discussed in theMaster's Corner.
You two have very good opinions and I'm one of those oddballs that enjoys talking about technology. Call me a 'geek' or whathave ya', but it is fun.:-)
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Post by Starkindler (The Naked Jedi) on Aug 21, 2005 18:31:28 GMT -5
I've always considered the blade of a saber to be a form of shaped forcefield technology. In Star Trek, forcefields are normally invisible (or can be slightly colored) and hum... They also make noise when something comes into contact with them, and on a high setting, can vaborize something coming into contact with it. They are linnear fields of gravitons (same things used in tractor beams and artificial gravity generators) so I've thought the blade of a saber could be a very tightly controlled form of that technology. Just my own opinion, of course:) I cannot see a force field being able to "cut" through other objects. Also I do not think they could make one with the strength to cut nearly anything. Plasma would interact with the molecular bonds of whatever it was cutting and seems a bit more feasible to me. Also it would sccount for why only the Jedi could make the sabers.......it could be their secret.
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Post by Leda EmBorr on Aug 21, 2005 23:42:48 GMT -5
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Post by Seda Navilli on Aug 22, 2005 2:31:59 GMT -5
I don't understand how plasma would be able to be focused by the crystals, it doesnt make much sense :S
Leda, does the book you mentioned explain this? I didn't think that plasma worked that way...
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Post by tanzanlinnear on Aug 22, 2005 3:09:06 GMT -5
I cannot see a force field being able to "cut" through other objects. Also I do not think they could make one with the strength to cut nearly anything. Plasma would interact with the molecular bonds of whatever it was cutting and seems a bit more feasible to me. Also it would sccount for why only the Jedi could make the sabers.......it could be their secret. Well, as I said in the quote, sometimes forcefields are set to such a high level that they vaporize anything that touches them. To me, that would certainly suggest that a tightly shaped forcefield of a sufficient intensity could cut through (vaporize it's way through) something solid, but still deflect directed energy from blasters and ForceLightning. (Also, Force Lightning would disrupt a magnetic bottle and release the plasma everywhere, rather than being reflected and dissipated by it, as is the case with a lightsaber) If you compare the mechanics of a forcefield generator, a matter/antimatter reaction assembly and a lightsaber (all using crystals to focus energy) the forcefield generator and the lightsaber are the closest parallels. The forcefields that protect a starship are shaped, not flat (as with the fields used in a brig) so that shows that forcefields can be shaped and controlled. With the dilithium crystal in the M/ARA, it is used to channel two energy streams, and refract them. The energy streams come at 90 degrees to the crystal, and are then refracted along it's axis (but not from the point of the crystal) In a forcefield generator, the energy stream comes into the crystal along it's axis and is then refracted along the axis (either straight or shaped) To me, that seems the closer comparison to how a lightsaber channels the energy for the crystal to focus. Then, there is the issue of heat. I forget where, but I'm sure I've read that lightsabers do not emit heat. Jedi are able to hold their sabers close to their bodies, and the hilts are always made of alloys and polymers. Plasma is superheated gas. A magnetic field could certainly contain the plasma in a certain position, but it couldn't do anything to contain the heat from the plasma. If lightsaber blades were plasma, the hilt of the saber would be too hot to touch, let alone hold the blade anywhere near the body. Forcefields however, do not tend to create heat (as sometimes they are invisible, and people walk into them. If they were hot, the person would know it was there) The heating effects seen when a lightsaber cuts through something are caused by friction (like how filed metal will heat up, despite both the metal and the file being cold) rather than direct heat. The power cell pushes a tremendous amount of power into the main crystal, which converts the raw energy into a beam of light, which is then focused by the second crystal to reach a point at the blades end, in much the same way a magnifying glass can pinpoint sunlight. Also, while I agree that light can indeed be focused to come to a point, that point still has to be against a solid object, light cannot be made to 'stop' at a certain point. The only solid a forcefield requires, however, is it's emitter... Rather like a lightsaber...
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Post by Jauhzmynn Enz on Aug 22, 2005 11:36:14 GMT -5
Humm, wow were are you digging this up Tanzan? It makes sense. It sounds like you'er really thinking this through.
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Post by tanzanlinnear on Aug 22, 2005 11:50:52 GMT -5
Humm, wow were are you digging this up Tanzan? It makes sense. It sounds like you'er really thinking this through. I had the Star Trek:Next Generation Technical Manual when I was younger, and that explains how (if it were real) the technology and equipment would actually work I know in the EU they like to describe the blade of a lightsaber as 'pure energy', because that sounds cool, but when you think about it, it doesn't really make much sense... To me, the properties of a lightsaber blade (and the way it can be controlled and handled) seem much closer to forcefield technology than plasma flow ;D
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Post by Starkindler (The Naked Jedi) on Aug 22, 2005 17:10:15 GMT -5
let's meet in the middle then! (Though I didn't think Trek Tech would apply you make a good case) I too have the manual and know what you are referring to. As you say Force Lightening might disrupt a magnetic bubble so.... perhaps the sabers use a force field technology (a magnetic field variant I believe) to contain the plasma flow. the plasma flow could actually power the field along it's length. the filed could be tuned for length and strength by adjusting the magnetic rings and power flow from the cell.
or the inverse could be true as the "Core" of the saber could be a projected and shaped forcefield that allowed the plasma energy to scintilate along it's length and be re-absorbed. This way the shape could be maintained, energy reflected by the core, and the cutting action maintained?
Maybe?
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Post by Jauhzmynn Enz on Aug 22, 2005 17:20:32 GMT -5
<rubs chin> Force feilds, plasma magnetic bottles. Humm. The theory of the plasma not being a logical cadidaite makes sense if the hilt is only metel. However if there's an inner sleeve made of a super light material that can disapaite heat then one could use plasma. I thought I'd read somewhere that there is a heat sink of sorts in the lightsabre, how it would function,(Where it'd be placed, how it'd disapate heat without the need of external vents etc.) I don't know. I've no technical manuals around. Bummer. I understand this stuff, my problem is being able to voice what I see in my head clearly.
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Post by tanzanlinnear on Aug 22, 2005 19:20:19 GMT -5
let's meet in the middle then! (Though I didn't think Trek Tech would apply you make a good case) I too have the manual and know what you are referring to. As you say Force Lightening might disrupt a magnetic bubble so.... perhaps the sabers use a force field technology (a magnetic field variant I believe) to contain the plasma flow. the plasma flow could actually power the field along it's length. the filed could be tuned for length and strength by adjusting the magnetic rings and power flow from the cell. or the inverse could be true as the "Core" of the saber could be a projected and shaped forcefield that allowed the plasma energy to scintilate along it's length and be re-absorbed. This way the shape could be maintained, energy reflected by the core, and the cutting action maintained? Maybe? Well, in all fairness, I'm only using Trek Tech as there aren't any explanations as to how forcefields work in the SW universe (although the shields around the Nabboo starfighter are clearly shaped, so I assumed similar principles and technology) Another issue with a magnetic bottle, is that it would not be 'solid'. It might be capable of cutting through a solid object (like a blow torch) but it wouldn't be capable of stopping a similar blade (as we all know lightsabers do) Although the lightsaber blade has no mass, it still acts as a solid in it's interactions with other lightsaber blades and solid objects. Forcefields aren't so much magnetic fields, as fields of focused gravitons (essentially a reversal of the technology of a tractor beam/artificial gravity generator) However, I still don't see how plasma can come into the mix, because not only would it make the saber hilt too hot to handle, and the blade too hot to hold near the wielder, but there is no plasma reservior listed as a component in any saber. Again, compare the function with a forcefield generator and an M/ARA. Your theory is closer to the M/ARA, but that would not produce a blade of fixed length that would act as solid to another blade. If you consider it to be an intensely powerfull shaped forcefield, there is no need for plasma, as the forcefield itself can cut (vaporize) through objects and still repel another lightsaber blade. As for the core of the saber and the glow, rather than this being seperate elements of the blade (ie a core surrounded by plasma or something surrounded plasma) think of it as visible particle decay from the core itself, with those decaying particles emitting wavelengths that can be perceived as color (the type of crystal could determine the frequency of that wavelength, hence the different colors of saber blade). The core itself is decaying outwards, which accounts for the fuzziness of both core and glow, but with only the core retaining the cutting/deflection qualities.
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Post by Starkindler (The Naked Jedi) on Aug 22, 2005 20:10:20 GMT -5
I find your argument compelling and tend to lean that way (since my original reason for this thread was to indicate that a Lightsaber couldn't be a literal laser-sword)...there are a few questions....
ever try to push two magnets together with the same pole facing? If the sabers are charged they would act on each other sort of as solids. the presence of the charge would also affect their interaction with any conductive material (which seems to be when they appear to meet any resistance since organic things seem to part like butter)
In the saber anatomy I've seen the first of the magnetic portions of the saber occur directly after the focusing crystals. then there is a second magnetic ring as well near the emitter. This mandates a function for these parts. How does that figure into the force field issue since they are controlled graviton emissions.....unless the magnetism is the shaping agent. SHips shield do conform to the shape of the ship, but isn't that due to the overlapping array of both generators and emitters on the surface of the ship? If not then how could only "part" of the shields go down.
In TPM Qui-Gon's saber seems to be melting the blast door of the Neimodian bridge. How would this be accounted for by the force field "Vaoprization" you mentioned. Friction would account for heat, but reducing heavy steel to a molten state seems to imply something else.....no?
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