ensignd
Message Board Member
Posts: 3
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Post by ensignd on May 25, 2005 12:28:33 GMT -5
Ben tells luke that his father wanted luke to have his old light saber when he was old enough, but his uncle wouldn't allow it...
was Ben lying? nowhere in ROTS did Anakin ever say--oh Ben, by the way, Padme is pregnant and if I ever die or "betray and murder myself", please give my light saber to the baby I will never know...
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Mon-Jas Charan
Message Board Member
"Poena Vigoratus. Pullus cavo vix. Palma , est eternus"
Posts: 2,630
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Post by Mon-Jas Charan on May 25, 2005 12:54:52 GMT -5
Look at the point of view … Ben knew that Luke was the last hope for the Jedi … He knew Luke idolized his father, and If his father had said it, that Luke would be easily swayed to join him on his mission. Ben had an end to accomplish, and knew what “buttons” to push to get Luke for fulfill his destiny. Did Ben deceive Luke? It depends on your point of view … the universe is not Black and White, only the Sith think in absolutes.
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ensignd
Message Board Member
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Post by ensignd on May 25, 2005 13:31:33 GMT -5
Thank you for helping me realize that I am actually a Sith. On to many evil deeds...
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on May 25, 2005 16:25:03 GMT -5
Yes. Ben lied. Noooooo doubt about it. Ben's lie about Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough matches pretty well with the one about Luke's father being betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader. Luke was set up, just as his father was.
Ben believed that there were no coincidences and that Luke was going to be drawn into his destiny no matter what. That's certainly the way it was playing out when Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru got killed by the stormtroopers. Ben chose to beg forgiveness later rather than dump the whole mess on Luke cold. While Ben intended to protect Luke from The Awful Truth, at least long enough to convince him to join him, it was pure deception anyway and only slightly less true than what Owen and Beru had been telling Luke his whole life.
If I were Ben, I honestly would have done the same thing. The straight truth would have been something like, "Well, let's see, after I trained him to be an honorable Jedi, he turned on the whole order and had been murdering small children and unarmed prisoners just before I cut his legs off. BTW, he also likely killed your mother with a broken heart and your father is currently the second-most evil guy in the galaxy. And since you're likely the only person we know of who could take on the Emperor (even Yoda didn't have the midichlorines to do the job) want to join the Rebellion? And since the Force is controlling your destiny you actuallly don't have a choice about getting into this fight anyway, so why not join the good guys?"
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Post by kivaanzion on May 25, 2005 17:07:09 GMT -5
LOL! Don't forget, "Here Luke... Here is the very weapon your Father used to slay the younglings with. Go on take it... It is an elegant weapon from a more civilized age." Could you picture Luke? "Err... uhh... that's OK Ben. No thanks, uhh... you go ahead and keep it. I... uhh... I think I can hear my Uncle calling me. Gotta run! Bye!" No way Ben could have told Luke the truth. No way no how!
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Post by Cem-Ji Pobroo on May 25, 2005 17:34:36 GMT -5
I knew someone was going to bring this up. Ben of course knew that Luke did not want to be a farmer and that he was watching him grow up from afar. Ben knew his time was short so he had to like Mon-Jas said, push the right buttons to get Luke interested. No, Anakin did not say give my lightsaber to my unborn son. Please also keep in mind that these movies were made 28 years apart with IV made before III. I guess some people might want to be technical rather than just enjoy the movies. Next, people will be saying how Leia can't possibly remember her mother; Luke asks her in ROTJ what she remembers about her mother and she said that she was beautiful but sad. That could be her adoptive mother for all we know (but I doubt it).
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Post by Bel-Den Shaw on May 26, 2005 0:56:14 GMT -5
im sure anakin and padme discussed him leaving the jedi after the war to go back to naboo and raise the skywalker twins and im sure anakin planned on teaching the twins the ways of the force. so maybe it is true he did want luke to have it.
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Post by Parga Carwis on May 26, 2005 0:59:08 GMT -5
I think Luke specifically asked Leia about her real mother - and she mentioned images. Which makes me wonder if they had pictures (holos?) of Padme, which Bail well could have had, since they were apparently fairly close according to Ep II & III (and the novelizations). But yes, Ben lied. In a nutshell, no breaking it down, he lied. Like someone said, he knew that Luke didn't want to be a farmer & that this might well be the kick in the butt to get him started on the road to saving the galaxy/redeeming his fater. What about the whole "...named Darth Vader seduced & murdered your father..." line. That's obviously a lie (from a certain point of view my butt - it's a lie). But, it does sound better than "I whupped your pappy good & left him lying in a ball of flame".
Anyone notice that other than Palpatine playing the double role of Chancellor/Sith Lord, the Sith don't lie? They don't always tell the entire truth, but rarely do they lie. The whole thing about knowing how to manipulate midichlorians (still the worst thing ever introduced into the SW galaxy) to create life/stop people from dying was a half-truth, since he knew it could be done & (probably) kind of how to do it. Not a Sith lover or anything, but ya know...if you wanna know the lowdown, or at least the general gist of it, I'd probably have to ask one of them before Yoda & the gang...
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Post by kivaanzion on May 26, 2005 8:02:04 GMT -5
The Sith do not lie? Chancellor Palpatine: "I love democrasy... I love the Republic. The power you grant me today I will lay down when this crisis has abated". I realize he was "being Chancellor Palpatine", but that was a flat out lie, as well as telling the senate that the Jedi attepmted a coup against the Republic in Ep3. Vader to the Emperor- "He will join us or die, Master." Vader to Luke- "Join me and we will rule the galaxy as Father and Son." Vader lied to Palpatine on the entire issue of Luke- Vader had his own agenda of recruiting Luke to be his own Sith apprentice in order to destroy the Emperor and take Palpatine's place the whole time. Dooku to Obi-Wan- "You must join me, and together we will destroy the Sith." Again a lie; Dooku does not intend to destroy the Sith, he is Sith! He intends to have Obi-Wan become his apprentice in order to destroy Palpy and become the head honcho of the universe. The Sith only tell the truth when it will shock, confuse, and demoralize their opponent.
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Post by Parga Carwis on May 26, 2005 9:32:31 GMT -5
I'll give you the Palpatine line - but the rest are, as you said in another thread, taken from a certain point of view... Vader to the Emperor - at the time, he quite possibly could have meant that. It wasn't until later that he actually had the idea of overthrowing the Emperor & becoming the Master with Luke as the apprentice, which also explains the quote from Vader to Luke. And I suppose I'll have to give you the Dooku line as well, but then again, he would just about have to since he was so embroiled in politics (I'm pretty sure that's a prerequisite). I should have started my post with what I said later instead of the first sentence - it's not that they don't lie, it's that they rarely lie. For the most part, anything they say will shock, confuse, or demoralize - just like all good movie villians from days gone by (James Bond, anyone? why did they always tell him their entire plan before killing him - stupid, stupid, stupid!). Yet again, Ki Vaan, you've managed to show me a different angle on my thinking with very valid counterpoints. Thank you again!
However, we're getting away from the original point of the thread - your FATHER'S lightsaber. Even though he had the best of intentions, you have to admit - certain point of view or no, this was not quite the truth...
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Post by Cem-Ji Pobroo on May 26, 2005 17:16:51 GMT -5
How about when Vader asks Palpatine about Padme? All along Palpatine was saying how he could save Padme. He told Vader that he killed her. Which, I guess in a way, he did kill Padme since she died of a broken heart because what he did. But who cares about telling the truth when you're talking about good vs evil?
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Post by kivaanzion on May 26, 2005 20:42:04 GMT -5
Really when Ben says "Your Father wanted you to have this", I believe he is saying: " I wanted you to have this... but your Uncle wouldn't allow it." I really agree that Luke completely idolized his Father. I suppose part of the appeal is that he knows very little of his Father other than the little snippets his Uncle tells him. Just as has been already said- Ben knows how important it is for Luke to become a Jedi. So he tells Luke what a great, powerful Jedi his Father was, and then gives him a mystical weapon to peak his interest, hoping he will follow in his Father's footsteps (without the lust for power, fall to the Dark side, rule the universe part ). And yes, I agree with Ani-Chay: If I were in Ben's shoes, I would have done the same thing. Luke must become a Jedi- nothing else matters.
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Aayla
Message Board Member
'excitement, Adventure jedi craves not these things'
Posts: 192
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Post by Aayla on May 27, 2005 3:44:20 GMT -5
what both vader and obiwan failed to explain to luke is whos responsible for vaders suit and mask etc and why he is the way he is, and also luke didnt actually ask anyway i think he figured people can be born with scary masks and suits
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Post by Parga Carwis on May 27, 2005 9:07:07 GMT -5
...i think he figured people can be born with scary masks and suits That might have been rougher on Shmi than the Tuskens were. I completely agree that Ben did/said what he had to in order to spur Luke into action. I've just never been a fan of the whole "certain point of view" thing. (Much less so for Ben now that I'm pretty sure the seed for that idea was planted in his head by Anakin in ROTS - Obi Wan "Anakin, Palpatine is evil!" Anakin - "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!".)
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Post by Qual Totem on May 27, 2005 14:26:03 GMT -5
i can still believe in the certain point of view because in my point of view Anakins point of view was right to Anakin because evil is defined in the persons point of view so in Anakin's point of view Jedi were evil making them evil towards him because in his point of view he thought they were............ confused don't be in my point of view some will get confused by this reply but thats ok in my point of view
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