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Post by Parga Carwis on May 25, 2005 1:09:02 GMT -5
I would have thought that Obi Wan was still trying to talk Anakin out of it - because by this time, he knew he would have to kill him if they kept fighting, and even though he would "do what he must", he still didn't want to. By giving him an out, i.e. "It's over...I have the high ground" and "Don't try it", he was hoping to avoid any farther confrontation with someone he loved (even though by this time, I'm pretty sure he knew how it was going to end)... As for Padme, they deliberately left her looking pregnant. So if Bail showed up with a baby & Padme was still pregnant, people would have to be fairly dim to think that he took her child. And like someone said earlier, he did say that they had always wanted to adopt a baby. By leaving Padme looking pregnant, nobody would have thought about it. Out of all the people on all the planets in the galaxy, there would be literally millions of children to adopt who would be the same age. As for taking Luke to Tatooine, Yoda was the one who said something about placing him with his family. Perhaps hoping that Owen wouldn't be a pud about it & never tell him about his father (it's not like Anakin ever did anything to Owen) - maybe he thought that they'd raise him correctly, in a backwater planet run by the Hutts & generally overlooked by the Empire (Tatooine didn't even have a representative in the Senate, nor did they eventually have a Sector Governor, so it looks to me like the Empire pretty much didn't think about Tatooine - at all). And yes - good point about Vader wanting to blow up Tatooine out of spite!
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BakaNeko
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Post by BakaNeko on May 25, 2005 11:54:25 GMT -5
I can see how Obi-Wan had the high ground and the advantage, but in Episode I Darth Maul clearly had the advantage when Obi-Wan was hanging in the pit. So... how come Maul died so easily, its been a while since I've seen Ep. I but I think he just merely watches Obi-Wan jump over him and then slice him in half.
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on May 25, 2005 16:49:12 GMT -5
Because Maul just stood there while Obi-Wan cut him in half. ;D
Actually, Darth Maul just wasn't expecting Obi-Wan to be able to attack; he'd just kicked Obi-Wan's lightsaber down the shalft. Maul had obviously forgotten about Qui-Gon's lightsaber. Big mistake. Obi-Wan had surprise on his side since Maul thought he was unarmed until it was too late.
Anakin did not have any surprises up his sleeve. Obi-Wan could see him coming from every angle, AND he knew what weapons he had, too.
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Post by kivaanzion on May 25, 2005 16:49:44 GMT -5
Yes it was certainly a bit of a "doofus" moment on Maul's part- If I had to break it down it would go something like this... Maul was toying with Obi-Wan, I'm not sure if he actually expected him to Force leap out of the chasm. Obi-Wan was unarmed when he initially leaped out- Maul had forgotten about Qui-Gon's saber nearby. Again Maul let his guard down slightly, blinded by his false sense of superiority. Overconfident he was, hmm? Maul did look pretty startled even as Obi-Wan flipped over his head; it was just enough of a distraction in order for Obi to cut Maul in half with. Bottom line- Maul never saw it coming. He wasn't as good as he believed he was. Now getting back to Obi-Wan vs Anakin. Anakin hesitated on his Force leap. Since Obi-Wan had used this exact same move on Maul, he was totally prepared to counter when Anakin attempted it. And Ani-Chay... you definitely type faster than me.
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Post by Parga Carwis on May 26, 2005 0:57:28 GMT -5
Not to mention the problem that ALL of the Sith have when they're fighting - they get thingyy. Just like in any RL fight/combat/whatever - get thingyy, you lose your concentration. I don't care how strong you are with the Force, light side, dark side, whatever - you have to concentrate. There'll be time for gloating once the bodies disappear (or are cremated, or what have you).
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BakaNeko
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Post by BakaNeko on May 27, 2005 11:47:13 GMT -5
Now getting back to Obi-Wan vs Anakin. Anakin hesitated on his Force leap. Since Obi-Wan had used this exact same move on Maul, he was totally prepared to counter when Anakin attempted it. I never even thought about that, Obi-Wan was prepared because he used that move. hhmm......
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on May 27, 2005 15:47:20 GMT -5
And Ani-Chay... you definitely type faster than me. I don't know if it's typing fast, or just being there at the right time. But I don't know why my reply got posted twice. Pressing "Post Reply" twice?
Good point about Anakin basically trying to do the same thing to Obi-Wan that Obi-Wan successfully did with Maul. The situations hadn't looked that similar to me, but I can see it now. And Anakin thought he was as good as Yoda with his lightsaber back in ATOC; overconfidence was his failing.
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Post by Jedimom/Cor-Al Gelkar on May 30, 2005 7:53:04 GMT -5
One question I have. The Separatists are all gathered on Mustafar. They have been told a new Apprentice will come and take care of them. The door opens and Anakin walks in and they are all happy. Why? For all they know, Anakin is still a Jedi. And even if they did know Anakin was the apprentice to Sidious, wouldn't you think its a trap if you see a Jedi walk in?
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Post by LoreenShadowchaser on May 30, 2005 12:38:31 GMT -5
Did anyone think about the possibility that maybe Obi-Wan could also have meant that he had the Moral Highground, too? Since he was still Lightside while Anakin was now Darkside? Just a thought.
It's what I thought, when he was saying that.
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Post by lazlototh on May 30, 2005 13:16:52 GMT -5
It's a good point - I'm a little hesitant to comment too much on that last battle since I don't have the sword fighting experience I should. But shouldn't fighting a war for a few years hone most of the stupidity out of a person? My guess is Anakin was out of balance emotionally (yeah, that's kind of a duh thing to say) and was not thinking clearly. If simply taking the higher ground gave Kenobi that much of an advantage, why didn't he do that near the beginning and get the fight over with? And if it made that much of a difference, is it possible that Anakin (if he had a half a brain at the moment) could not have done the same thing and killed Kenobi at the beginning? Plotwise, it seems Lucas had to make Anakin so blind with power that simply thinking a tactic through would have made a difference.
Which brings me to another question: Did Palpatine throw the fight with Mace, expecting Anakin to come? Palpatine, a more coldly calculating person - could he have pulled that off? Palpatine claims to forsee the whole thing; did he see Anakin arrive in time to save him, so all he had to do was pretend to lose to Mace? Or was that all just a carefully fated coincidence? Mace actually beat him, but Anakin, failing his patience roll, hurried to ensure Palpatine's survival? Hmmmmm....
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Post by Seda Navilli on May 30, 2005 17:16:11 GMT -5
Which brings me to another question: Did Palpatine throw the fight with Mace, expecting Anakin to come? I've been thinking that very thing; you can almost see it in his eyes when Anakin cuts off Mace's hand. But then why did he shrivel so much when he was using his lightning? Maybe they are 2 seperate things.
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Post by Jedimom/Cor-Al Gelkar on May 30, 2005 18:12:13 GMT -5
I think he was faking being "an old man" and being weak. He knew Anakin was coming. He sure came back awfully fast with teh Force Lightning once Mace was distracted
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Post by kivaanzion on May 30, 2005 18:52:41 GMT -5
Mace was deflecting the Force lightning with his lightsaber directly onto Palpatine's face- which seems to explain the disfigurement. I believe Palpatine was playing 'possum the whole time in order to send Anakin over the edge and attack Mace- completing his journey to the Dark Side. In ROTJ the Emperor states that he foresees events before they happen- he could very well have predicted Anakin coming to his aid. While Anakin sits and waits in the Council chambers he hears Palpatine's voice saying that he is the only one who could help Anakin save Padme. I don't believe Anakin was "remembering" this line- I think Palpatine was contacting him telepathically just like Vader contacted Luke at the end of ESB. So here's another question- when Palpatine is revealing to Anakin that he is the Sith lord they are looking for, he mentions to Anakin about his dreams of loosing Padme. Anakin responds by saying "What?!" and ignites his lightsaber. How did Palpatine know of Anakin's dreams? Here's a theory: Palpatine was projecting these images of Padme into Anakin's mind. Anakin has dreams (premonitions) of Padme dying in childbirth. This spurs Anakin's need to learn how to prevent death itself and that he had better learn quickly. Without Anakin telling any of these dreams to Palpatine, Palpatine explains to him that he just happens to know how to cheat death. Coincidence? Ironically after Mace is dead, and Anakin asks for the knowledge to save Padme, Palpatine admits that he doesn't really know how to cheat death, but that with Anakin's help the two of them can discover the secret together. Must have been quite the let-down for Anakin.
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Post by Seda Navilli on May 30, 2005 19:05:30 GMT -5
It is possible that Anakin told Palpatine about Padme; or more likely that Palpatine sensed it and hinted it to Anakin, and then Anakin confessed to him, like he did in regards to Anakin spying for the Jedi.
Seems like old Ani is not very good at hiding his feelings and thoughts.
Do you think that Palpatine had a preminition about Padme's death and projected it into his mind? He also had the same dreams about his mother, could it be that Palpatine predicted and projected those images as well?
This could create a big change in my perspective of Anakin - although unlikely, if its true that Palpatine was doing these things, Anakin never really stood a chance. Palpatine knew about him from when he was a little boy, and sensed the fear in him.
So does this mean that the whole Darth Vader catastrophe could be blamed on Qui Gon Jinn? He not only insisted on training Anakin despite Yoda's sense of fear in him, but also decided to do so despite the presence of a Sith Lord! One must seriously question Master Jinn's judgement in this case.
This line of thought has sure made me put alot more importance on the events of Episode I.
I think I need to relax a bit before I think about this one any further. Very interesting indeed.
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Post by Ani-Chay Pinn on May 30, 2005 20:22:59 GMT -5
I think that it's far more likely that Palpatine did not know about Anakin when he killed his master. IF the Sith did create Anakin. Palpatine would have scooped up Anakin right away if he'd known where he was; he likely found out his master actually creating life (if that's the way it happened) when he was going through his master's stuff. But Sith are a secretive bunch. And they follow the Force, no matter how dark. Sidius just waited for his master's creation to emerge. If it wasn't Qui-Gon, it would have been someone, or something else. And at least with the Jedi, Anakin had a chance. He did come through in the end. A little late, but he did.
I think that it's very appropriate that the Sith may have sewn the seeds of their own destruction. And still left nicely vague about what really happened. Some things are just that way.
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